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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The cinematography of The Force Awakens - Based on the teaser trailer

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by ray243, Nov 28, 2014.

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  1. Zev.Love.X

    Zev.Love.X Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 13, 2015
    Exactly. Blue lighting is fine for the inside of a troop transport but awful for a green forest
     
  2. hippie1kenobi

    hippie1kenobi Force Ghost star 4

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    Apr 28, 2002
    And in-universe colored lighting is something that has always been in SW, so I don't see it as a negative just because it is the dreaded blue.

    I don't want it to have the overall blue tint that the 2004(? I forget which one really pushed the blue) release has, but I also don't assume it will based on what we have seen so far
     
  3. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    May 26, 2006

    More importantly, don't give every single ship the same kind of lighting. To me, it is bad when every single ship and scene in STID have blue-lighting or is colour corrected to give a blue vibe.
     
  4. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2014
    Okay, but I guess my problem here is that you've demonstrated an inability to discern the difference between contrast and sharpness, you can't tell lighting from color grading, and yet you're attempting to speak with some level of authority as to what good cinematography consists of, while simultaneously admitting you don't really know all that much about it and are hoping to be educated further.

    If you're really concerned with discovering more about cinematography, and using the camera, colors, light & shadow to assist in visual storytelling, I'm not sure the best way to go about it is to parrot back a couple dilettante's musings on simple trends they've noticed as legitimate criticism. There's a lot of ways to learn about cinematography, and I wouldn't suggest that youtube videos by know-it-alls bent on "fixing" other people's movies is the most accurate way to understand why people do the things they do with a camera.

    Yes, you could color correct the troopers so that they're always white, all the time, in that shot. But then you'd have to ask the question why. Why would you want that? What purpose would that serve? What would be improved over the original version?

    And those are answers that would need the context of the rest of the film to answer, along with a much firmer understanding of what it is you're actually seeing, and what purpose it serves as a storytelling tool.

    A lot of the things that make for good cinematography aren't some sort of flat, neutral ideal. Movies shot with a neutral palette aren't inherently better than films that don't have that. Good cinematography consists of well-executed decisionmaking that assists in the director's chosen course in storytelling. Sometimes that means you light something warmly. Or coldly. Or you barely light it at all. Or you blow-out everything because you know there's an effect you can apply in post that will deliver just the right feeling for the scene. But good cinematography is how you use the visual tools at your disposal to add to the storytelling.

    There's nothing in any of the examples that says those choices are detracting from the film and what it's trying to do at all. So I'm hesitant to say something wrong is going on.

    Just because you recognize a thing doesn't mean the thing is inherently bad. There's a LOT of criticism lately that seems to boil down to that. "Here's a thing I've had pointed out to me. So now I notice it. And because I notice it, it's a bad thing, because if it was a good thing, I wouldn't have known it was there."

    That's faulty criticism. A synapse firing isn't criticism. it's basic observation.
     
  5. Zev.Love.X

    Zev.Love.X Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 13, 2015
    I think the better option is to simply state what's bugging you even if the terms are not technical. "The Hobbit movies bugged me because they made me feel claustrophobic for three hours. I think it was something to do with the colors" is an honest observation but doesn't require cinemaese
     
  6. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2014
    You don't have to know film terminology to discuss this stuff, but you also have to apply more thought to it than "Blue bad."

    Like - why is blue bad? Why is blue bad for that scene? What about the look of the scene is or isn't enhanced by the decisions being made? Why does it work/not work?

    Here's a Mad Max example: There were people, as the film was getting rolled out, that jumped on the fact it seemed to have a blue/orange color scheme. Much has been made in recent years of the fact people have been shown to respond to those two colors. They're eye-catching, and people pay attention more when those two colors are used in marketing materials. And so more and more marketing departments (and even some filmmakers) have incorporated that knowledge into their decisionmaking, to varying results depending on the filmmakers using those tools.

    And so when the trailers and posters came out, you had people who saw orange & blue, and knee-jerk started complaining about the fact they were seeing orange and blue, as if those two colors being used in tandem was now automatically cliche and bad. And none of them thought to ask *why* they those colors seemed to be so prominent in the trailers and the marketing. The question never came up. It was pure reflex. "I've been told that this combo is lazy and bad. I see the combo. This is lazy and bad."

    Of course, had they thought to even ask the question, the answer "they're in a damned DESERT. It looks orange and blue because that's what a desert looks like" would have come back.

    This is the kind of phenomenon I'm trying to advise against here. Criticizing the photography of this movie before actually watching the movie, by taking a screengrab of a trooper in a specifically lit scene doesn't seem like "why" is being asked. It seems like knee-jerk reaction to the idea that color grading is a problem in Hollywood and Abrams has succumbed to it.
     
  7. Danfromumbrella

    Danfromumbrella Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 20, 2014
    bobbyroberts

    There's no sense arguing with him. He doesn't like Abrams and that's where the hate comes from. He'll try to find problems everywhere even when he's wrong like the color grading. Even though the trailers seem to be going against the color grading AND the lens flairs which were both heavily used as negatives against abrams before even seeing a drop of footage, both of which have been lessened to such a huge extent from what we've been seeing.
     
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  8. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    May 26, 2006
    I do not try and speak as if I had any authority in the field of cinematography. What I am simply trying to do is to try and understand the cinematographic aspect of TFA and Star Wars in general, and trying to use it to help me understand why some of those scenes doesn't jell with me.

    I do not believe in overly simplifying my experience merely as saying "It's too claustrophobic" because those aren't really helpful in helping me and others understand why we feel about the movie in that manner.


    Oh, I certainly do agree with you that a lot of the youtube videos trying to "fix" movies are problematic. I'm simply pointing out that via the use of colour correction by fans, it can be very easily to discern the constant blue-tint or green-tint used in movies.



    Well, I'm certainly not a fan of using always white as the primary colour in movies. I like the fact that movies are using colour-grading, in fact the LOTR movies and TDK made me feel in love with the use of colour grading in cinematography in the first place.

    True. I'm not arguing for a neutral palette. If we look at the OT and the PT, there were some amount of colour correction done in those films, and I do enjoy the use of colours to convey mood in movies. What I dislike about is some directors ( especially MichaelBay) have a tendency to over rely on one colour irregardless of the context of the scene.

    I do not think you can have a "wrong" choice in art, if the director have a very strong idea of why he wants certain shots to look at way. Why I raised the blue-tint that seems prevalent in the shots we've seen so far, be it via lighting or colour-grading, is because of what we've seen in STID where there is a tendency to use blue-tint in almost every shot, no matter the situation and context. A number of well-produced Star Wars fanfilm have a tendency to do that, and that makes the overall film itself feels a lot less expressive to me.


    I certainly hope you do get my point and where I am coming from.


    Well, as I stated before, it's not the use of the colour in individual scene that bothers me. It's whether will blue be the primary colour in the majority of the film like what happened in STID. Even if we compare STID to ESB, the colour barcode of the two films is quite different. Star Wars has always been about vibrancy of colours, with different setting having a different colour.


    If that is what you think of me, then this isn't helping the discussion at all. If Lucas or any other directors are making extensive use of one singular colour, I would have some problems with it as well.
     
  9. DarthLightlyBruise

    DarthLightlyBruise Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 11, 2015
    bobbyroberts for the win!
     
  10. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2014
    Why does it matter is what I'm wondering, though. What about blue filters concerns you so much? What is it about the possibility of the color blue appearing in scenes that is bothering you?

    I mean, we've essentially, via your responses, that the main worry of yours is that the film will have multiple scenes that feature the color blue. What is it about the color blue that's got you worried? Why is the prevalence of blue in the movie a sticking point?

    As an aside, has any of this occurred to you at any point while watching the films of either James Cameron, or Michael Mann?
     
  11. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    May 26, 2006
    I think this has to do with the fact that previous Star Wars movies did not use one colour so exclusively, while SW fanfilms have a tendency to do so. Star Wars to me has always been about seeing different colours in in the scenes. Take Order 66, one of my favourite Star Wars scene, which gave us a wide variety of planets with very different colour palette. It shows us how different the Galaxy is, and how different is each battleground the Jedi is killed in. I think colour is very good at reminding the audience we are in a different place, and it makes it easy to tell Tatootine from Yavin IV or Hoth. At the same time, it also makes it easy to tell which ship or base the heroes and villains are in for instance. We know the hallways of Tantive IV from an Imperial Star Destroyer simply because of the way the corridor is lit.

    If blue filters are being over used like what is going on in STID, it makes everything feel as if the Star Trek universe is a massive place with very different location. It makes very little difference if the crew are in the shuttle or outside of the shuttle in the scenes set on the Klingon home world.

    Also, I think blue isn't a very natural colour for us. How often do we see blue lights indoors? This creates a sense of artificiality that reminds me that I am watching a movie.


    In the sense I've noticed the blue-tint? The other movie where I remember having a blue-tint is The Dark Knight, which I do appreciate for how it is used. However, I must wonder if this is a good thing for a sci-fi movie, especially one that features a variety of planets and locations. Locations is a very important element in sci-fi because they relied more heavily on settings more than a crime drama.

    Cameron's work in Avatar does features a blue-tint, but it is differentiated by the outdoor scenes in Pandora, which has a very vibrant green palette.


    This isn't about who wins or lose in this thread. It's sad if you think I am in this thread to win anything.
     
  12. TK327

    TK327 Force Ghost star 4

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    May 7, 2001
    Well, aside from the blue-lit trooper transport, I'm not seeing evidence of a narrow color palette in this film. If anything, the shots on Jakku have a somewhat raw documentary look similar to ANH. They have a warm color palette, but I'm not seeing evidence of extensive color-grading.
     
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  13. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2014
    There is a huge difference between a film having scenes shot (or color-graded in post) to have a blue hue to them, and the idea that the film entire is somehow monochromatic. The idea that people will visually be lost, or that Abrams is somehow muddying or confusing audiences in previous movies because of the film's photographic choices doesn't really have any merit. You'd have to suggest (and show examples) of people feeling like they didn't know where they were, or why they were there, or that they got confused/lost due to the choices made by Abrams & Mindel on any of the Star Trek movies (which again, were praised for their color and vibrancy).

    And I don't even know why fan films are continuing to be a part of this conversation. They shouldn't be. They're fan films. They're not valid for the purposes of this conversation. They're barely valid, period, definitely not as a point of comparison when discussing feature film photography. They're a bad point of reference to be using. I really don't get the sense you're asking the question "Why" yet. You're just moving on from a faulty premise that you don't fully understand but you're doing a good job of fumbling at it as if there's merit to your complaints based on a few screenshots from a trailer, one of which you already misidentified as "color grading"

    Watch less fan-films. Watch more movies.
     
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  14. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    May 26, 2006
    Perhaps my phrasing earlier isn't the best, but I'm not saying people or I am visually lost in STID. I am saying it can be difficult for me ( at the very least, for I cannot state this applies for others) in distinguishing where is the scene located if there is a constant use of the same colour hue.

    Would it not help if there was a very distinct colour contrast between the interior lighting of a Rebel ship and an Imperial ship? White for Rebels and Blue for Imperials. ( It certainly could be the reason why Blue hue was used in the chrometrooper scene.) More importantly, how does the use of a constant colour hue help a film like Star Wars? We aren't watching a movie like the Matrix which relies heavily on a green hue indicates that the scenes is taking place inside the matrix itself, as opposed to the "real" world.

    I mean, look at the Order 66 scene. Every planet has very different colour hue from the previous previous planet.



    I mentioned in the sense that the new films felt akin to many of the decisions made in fanfilms or low budget productions, often in an attempt to make things look more "professional". I apologise if I am fumbling at expressing my views, and your post has certainly been quite helpful.

    I think it will be interesting if you can comment on why you think the blue hue in STID works for you.
     
  15. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2014
    This is not a thing that happened, or even had a possibility of happening, in either Star Trek movie. It's a ridiculous concern. I'm baffled as to why you have it. Star Trek Into Darkness was not consistently blue, especially not to the point where people didn't know where they were within the movie anymore. Vulcan is Red. Ice Planet was white. Kronos was brown. The Enterprise is an Apple Store. San Fransisco is... also an Apple Store. Real clear. Super-obvious.

    None of those locations look the same, or are shot the same. The comparison you keep trying to draw between the Star Trek films and the Star Wars films in that regard is false. I'd say it's disingenuous but that would imply you know it's a bad comparison and are making it anyway, and I'm not sure you do at all.
     
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  16. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    May 26, 2006

    Again, you are not really answering the question I am asking, which is whether a more striking and contrasting colour would help in distinguishing the scenes. Moreover, if you look at the barcode of STID, you will realise most of the scenes have a very distinct blue hue. You've been telling me that there is nothing wrong with using a single colour scheme, but you have not really help in explaining why is that approach ideal as well, especially in the context of STID or TFA ( if they did use blue extensively).

    Especially in STID, a lot of the Enterprise scenes were given a blue lighting or use a blue filter in colour correction. If we look at the barcode, it is pretty noticeable.
     
  17. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2014
    I'm not answering the question because it's impossible to answer - I haven't seen The Force Awakens yet, so I don't know if the locations could be better delineated by applying more severe lighting or post-production color grading (which is... isn't that what you're arguing against?). Although even just going by the trailers, I'm pretty easily discerning that different shots are coming from different locations, and that those locations have their own discernable looks, which makes your worry even more confusing in that I have no idea where you're coming from on this at all.

    I haven't been telling you there's nothing wrong with using a single color scheme. I haven't said that at all. You've been quoting my posts as you go, so I assume you're reading them - you know I haven't actually said that, or argued that making a film monochromatic is an inherently good or bad thing. What I've been saying is that color grading is simply a tool like any other, and you seem to be complaining about an aspect of the film that you dont' even know exists yet, for reasons you're not great at articulating, because I'm fairly certain you don't really understand them.

    But you're gonna cling to the idea that lighting/color grading (which you can't distinguish between) makes understanding the locations in the film more complicated, and I'm going to keep rejecting that out of hand because it simply makes no sense, even in films where the director/cinematographer have decided to apply lighting and/or color grading as a storytelling aid specifically.

    There's a reason this thread was plucked out of obscurity and turned into the butt of a Cracked joke.
     
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  18. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    I'll say that I've stopped watching David Fincher's movies because I find his use of colour grading overbearing and claustrophobic. Really, my eyes get tired watching them. That's his style and I appreciate that, but I'm not a fan of that grungy, olive green look.

    But nothing in the teasers shows anything like that. Indeed, use of colour and lighting has looked great to my eyes so far. I can see subtle tweaking to the colours but it's all used as a tool. Colour grading is bad when it's used reflexively, unthinkingly, because a certain palette is "in". But I see no evidence of that here. Every image I've seen has looked stunning.

    So the real question is, does the palette serve the story or not?
     
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  19. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Fincher sometimes moves from the crap-filter (Alien 3, Seven) to the steel-filter (Gone Girl, The Social Network). I feel he varies up his looks more and more as his career goes on.
     
  20. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    I'll maybe give one of his latter movies a try. The last film of his I saw was Panic Room, so 13 years is maybe long enough to give him another go.

    Edit: If looking "monochrome" can confuse an audience as to which scene is where, I guess anything in B&W is a complete visual mess.
     
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  21. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    May 26, 2006
    My main argument is against using an uniform colour scheme throughout the movie, and I am not necessarily against the use of colour grading itself.

    If that is the case with the end product, I do not have a problem with that at all.

    I agree with your point about colour grading being a mere tool of directors and cinematographers.

    You were asking me what is wrong with making a film monochromatic, to which I made my reply to your question. I'm saying that using a single colour scheme would reduce the vibrancy of the films, and vibrancy helps to make it easier for the viewer to tell different scenes apart.


    Sigh, I think you are missing the point I am trying to get at. I'm saying if a director is willingly to avoid using one major colour scheme for the entire movie ( such as teal in the case of Transformers), it would allow different colours to stand out more in different scenes.

    What I am NOT saying is colour grading and lighting itself makes it difficult for the viewer to distinguish the different locations. I hope this would clear things up a little. :)
     
  22. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2014
    That is not a question I ever asked you.
     
  23. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    May 26, 2006

    Not directly perhaps, but you were saying this:

    Yeah, saying it confuses the audience is perhaps taking it too far, but I am trying to say a film that is less monochromatic would allow a movie to have an easier time distinguishing different setting.
     
  24. Rookhelm

    Rookhelm Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 22, 2014
  25. PymParticles

    PymParticles Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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