"The Circle" discussion/speculation thread

By popular demand.

I went back through all the Circle posts and found some of the big questions I've had thrown at me. For your consideration:

* Who is Ben's dad?
* Now that events are repeating, who is playing what role?
* Is Han going to die? Or at least lose a limb?
* Does Ben have a sister?
* Why did Rage turn to the Dark Side?
* Does Melody have special significance?
* What's Lucéa up to?
* What happened to Chewie?
* Will Melody ever learn not to be quite so obscene?
* Will Ben and Jessa get together or just drive each other crazy?

Whee! Must go write post!

 

Pellaeon is Ben's father. I just feel it in my bones. But Mara didn't know that, because it was done artificially. Mara thought Threepio was Ben's father.

I think Han is really Boba Fett.

 

Yeah. That's it. You guessed the whole plot.

 

Well, I agree with Tree Cave, with the added bit that I think R2-D2 killed Leia because he was jealous about Threepio and Mara and, well, to a droid all human females look pretty much the same.

 

Oh, lord. What have I started?

 

Rage isn't really Luke... Artoo took over Luke's body to extract his revenge. He was so pissed off at being mistaken for a garbage can all those years that he teamed up with Palpatine to smite them all.

 

1. I think Mikel is Leia reincarnated and this is how she is exacting her revenge on Luke.

2. Lando and Han had a falling out many years back over whether or not Palpatine had a hairpiece, it was this falling out that brought Lando to Coruscant to determine for once and for all if Palpy actually had a hairpiece. And Lando is just so lovable that even Palpy couldn't resist...

3. Finally, I think Dennilee is actually completely comprised of Midi-chlorians, and when she figures it out....WATCH OUT! (This is the best option for all those people who don't want to think about a Sith Lord and his wife.)

All the best,
JediLeiaSolo

 

OK, I'll be the grown-up and start a serious debate.

Lisse's post today confused me for a bit, as Rage is sitting there sort of half-thinking, half going "shut up, brain!" in denial..... I thought for a minute there he was definitely coming to the conclusion that Ben is his son, then she threw in....

"It wasn't a question of who; it was a question of why." I may be paraphrasing, sorry - too lazy to go look up the exact line.

"Why?" Why what? Why was the kid born? I presume he knows the basic physical answers to that sort of question, so what is he wondering, exactly?

Speculate!

 

That "why" threw me, too. I'm still convinced that Rage has to be Ben's father. I mean, Ben HAS to be a Skywalker to complete the prophecy, right? Granted, Mikel could be the one the prophecy is referring to, but that doesn't seem to fit his character or the role he's playing in "the circle".

So could the "why" be, Why did Mara leave when she knew she was pregnant? Why did she abandon Rage? Of course, I'm looking hard at Rage for inner angst to explain his fall, so my views will be slanted toward finding real and perceived injuries.

I also have like a bazillion questions on what the heck happened at Endor? Vader didn't die there either, did he? If he had, then how would Leia have been able to attach Anakin's spirit to Han - she had no training then. And then who would have been able to train Leia?

So it seems Vader was converted, lived & escaped to find Leia, but Luke fell. Anybody else got any theories?

And Lisse mentioned somewhere that it was rumored only 5 people had been able to injure Rage in anyway. Okay, so there's Palp, Vader, Leia & Mara. Who's the fifth?? Or am I reading WAY too much into this?

 

As promised, a non-spoilery timeline.

EDIT 2/26: Changes are in bold.

~~

0 - Events of ANH.

1

2

3 - Events of TESB.

4 - The Battle of Endor. Han Solo marries Leia Organa.

5 - Leia Organa Solo meets Corran Horn.

6 - Jonos Karrde is born. Corran Horn marries Iella Wessiri.

7 - Chewbacca dies. Anakin Solo is born.

8 - Malinza Thanas is born.

9 - Hal Horn is born. Corran Horn and Iella Wessiri separate. Lando Calrissian marries Tendra Risant.

10 - Mara Jade defects. Rowan Archimedes distinguishes herself in battle. Sasha Darklighter is born. Xinia Terrik is born. Estrelle Janson is born. Melody re Riall is born (?)

11 - Ben Antilles is born. Lucéa Naberrie is born. Shay Moonskipper is born. Melody re Riall is born (?)

12 - Jessa Calrissian is born. Mara Jade is killed. Lucéa's parents die.

13 - Lando Calrissian leaves the Rebellion. Jagged Fel is born.

14 - Bellar Samahad is born. Prince Dirrek Chume is born.

15 - Rowan Archimedes captures Mon Mothma.

16 - Leia Organa Solo is killed. Ben Antilles is adopted by Gavin and Olivea Darklighter. Wedge Antilles assumes command of the Rebellion.

17 - Prince Mikel Ismaren Rage is born. Alis Depai begins working for the Imperial Family.

18 - Princess Asaria Chume is born.

19

20 - Treaty of Hapes. Asaria Chume is betrothed to Mikel Ismaren Rage.

21

22 - Bellar Samahad begins training.

23 - Princess Denilee Ismaren Rage.

24 - Malinza Thanas is elected vice-governor of Bakura.

25

26

27 - Jessa Calrissian becomes a gunrunner.

28 - Malinza Thanas is appointed Inner Councilor. Hal Horn meets Melody re Riall.

29 - 30 - The events of The Circle.

 

Wow, thanks for the timeline. I'm going to have to look over it quite a few times before things start falling into place for me.

Di-Lee:

I thought of two possbilities.

The "why" could also be why she GOT pregnant. Every writer can have her own stance on how birth control and all that works in the SW galaxy. If this story assumes that people can pretty much control conception, maybe Rage wonders why Mara did/didn't do whatever was required to allow her to conceive.

Or, if Rage/Luke is NOT Ben's father, then he's probably wondering why Mara had a child with whoever the "man Rage had once known" refers to, which I think could be Luke, given how Vader talks about Anakin in the third person, but could also be someone else.

I don't know who the fifth person who'd managed to hurt Rage is. Could be a lot of people. Heck, could even be Chewie - there's been absolutely no hint of how he died, has there? (Sorry, that's just on my mind now that I just read Chewie dies three years after Endor!)

As to Vader and Endor.... I'm not sure. Luke apparently turned Vader back to the good side (I know Han referred to "whatever else Luke had done, he had saved a soul") yet Luke turns.

Well, maybe Vader dies trying to prevent Luke from turning, and THAT turns Vader back? Then Anakin's spirit is what Leia has contact with? It's a possibility.

You know, I just hope even if we stumble onto the truths, Lisse doesn't change anything for the sake of keeping us hopping.

This keeps making me think of the little intro to one of the "Hitchhiker's Guide" books by Douglas Addams. It states that there's a theory that if the question and answer to "Life, the universe and everything" are ever both known at the same time, the universe will immediately be replaced by something even MORE bizarre and inexplicable. Then it says, "There is also a theory which states that this has already happened".

 

wow, thanks for the timeline. I think Lucea and Ben are sister and brother now.

 

Mcily, if Ben has a sister, Lucea is my guess, too. I started thinking that back when Palpatine was freaking about the prophecy and his visions.

Then again, Ben may just not have a twin.

Hey, in regards to that post early on where a guy said Ben couldn't be Luke's son because genetically speaking, a blond and a redhead couldn't have a kid with "brownish red" hair (and Lisse replied that she didn't know anything about genetics, so that didn't apply)..... I did a bunch of research on hair and eye color genetics, and also on twins (Zahn always maintained Luke wouldn't have twins unless their mother had twins in her line, because that's only passed on by the females in families). And you know what? It turns out our modern scientists know exactly.... SQUAT! That's right folks, they know NOTHING.

They USED to think only mothers controlled the tendency to have twins. They USED to think they knew how colors get passed on..... but they realize now there's way too much stuff out there they can't account for. According to the rules they have for eye color, my mother's family can't have the color scheme it has at all, and yet it does.

They're realizing it's not as simple as dominant v. recessive - there are linked genes and all this other junk going on.

Okay, sorry, that was off-topic. I've had caffeine.

 

TreeCave, you still need two eggs for fraternal twins, and that gene has to be in the mother's ancestry. Sperm doesn't facilitate extra ovulation. Identical twins can come from both sides, though, because that's a matter of a single cell spilting after fertilization.

Kind of brings 'Use the Force, Luke' to a whole new level... You know the whole ANH Death Star battle is one big g-rated analogy for sex, right? (I'm sick tonight, sorry.)

Anyway, add me to the Lucea and Ben supporters. Melody is also a suspect for twinage, though, most particularly because the actresses Lisse chose for Lucea and Melody look very much alike... And wasn't Melody raised by Ghent, Mara's smuggling pal? Maybe Melody is actually filling in the Luke role as twin #1, and Ben is just there for decoy. (Mara's son is, you have to admit, an excellent way to catch Rage off guard.) But isn't it interesting how Ben is adopted by the Darklighters the same year that Leia dies?

I'm still pretty sure it's Ben and Lucea, but Lisse is devious, and Melody is such a wild card.

Lisse's photo cast list here - see for yourself.

 

DesignSith,: "TreeCave, you still need two eggs for fraternal twins, and that gene has to be in the mother's ancestry. Sperm doesn't facilitate extra ovulation. Identical twins can come from both sides, though, because that's a matter of a single cell spilting after fertilization. "

This is exactly the theory that's in dispute now. For one thing, some researchers are finding that an enzyme in sperm CAN cause egg-splitting, although some women seem to override this somehow. There are several other things going on, and the bottom line is, they just don't know as much as they thought they did.

Plus, there's also the "hybrid" twin that everyone leaves out - two sperm in one egg, which then splits. There's just a LOT to it, and the old theories are being re-examined in light of the mapping of the human genome.

LOL! I've made that Death Star trench analogy myself on a few occasions. X and Y-wings? A narrow trench with a sort of double hole at the end through which the, er, torpedo has to precisely pass? And very few of the ships survive? Oh, there are even MORE parallels once I get going, but I probably shouldn't.

I also wonder about Melody being a twin, if there is a twin. She sure has some of Mara's personality, doesn't she?

And of course, when she faked Alai out with her fake Force usage, I'm betting that WAS part of the prophecy - so she may be Force-sensitive, too.

By the way, Alai is the character I most can't figure out. How can she have the blood of two Sith Lords in her veins? And keep in mind, she was born around the time of the Battle of Endor, if Rage's estimation of her age is correct (I think it was Rage - somebody said she was about 24-5). Either there are other Sith Lords in this story than we see in the films, or.....

1) The two Sith Lords whose blood she carries are Luke and Vader - making her Luke's daughter. Or...

2) She's descended from Palpatine and Vader, and the only way this could have happened with characters we know about would be.... shudder.... Leia and Palpatine. (Otherwise, there must be other children of either Palpatine or Vader, or something, to make this one work....)

Option 2 strikes me as wrong, but option 1 doesn't feel quite right, either, especially given the timing of her birth. I don't know if Rage's lack of enthusiasm toward her indicates anything.....

So what am I missing?

 

Hmmm. Well the whole heridity debate on twin births doesn't concern me so much. There are more factors than just that that can cause multi ovulation - fertility drugs being one of them. Not that I think Mara would be using those, but if drugs can cause it, then I think the Force could do it on its own as well. Heck, the Force CONCEIVED Anakin.

I honestly hadn't even thought of Ben & Lucea possibly being twins. Lucea's past just seemed too established to me to raise suspicion, I guess. It's certainly possible, but it still doesn't feel right to me.

Now I've been mildly suspicious of Melody's heritage. I hadn't caught the Ghent-Mara connection, and now that TreeCave has pointed that out, I'm even more suspicious. Plus, her being Ben's unknown twin would parallel the meeting of another set of unknown twins under similar, if not identical, circumstances.

Ali has caused me to wonder, too. She claims to have the blood of 2 Sith in her veins, but she also claims that Rage killed her parents right in front of her. So she's obviously not considering Rage or Palp as one of those parents. Of course, that doesn't necessarily exclude them, except to her knowledge. I'm clueless on this one.

 

Padawan_Di-Lee:
Heck, the Force CONCEIVED Anakin.

Oh, gods. I utterly hate that idea. Hate, hate, hate. Don't want to go there.

TreeCave:
Plus, there's also the "hybrid" twin that everyone leaves out - two sperm in one egg, which then splits.

I didn't know about that one. Interesting, though.

I totally forgot about Alai's claim to Sith ancestry. However, she's totally absent from Lisse's timeline, so I assume there's something important about it.

 

doublepost.

 

DI-LEE: Actually DesignSith pointed out the Ghent-Mara thing.... I pointed out Melody's "fake" force channeling.

I agree - throw Earth genetics out the window. What we DO understand, if we have any of it right, isn't relevant to a species of humans that have been mutating and evolving for millions more years than we have. And yeah, the Force can do what it wants, whether DesignSith fumes about it or not.

I suppose it's possible Alai has been told she has the blood of two Sith Lords, but actually doesn't know who they are? Maybe. But more likely, she's wrong. After all, she doesn't seem very Force-strong - Rage seems to find Mara considerably more Force-sensitive than Alai, and I always assumed Mara was pretty strong (actually, I give her a midi-chlorian count of 18,500 in my fiction) but someone descended from either the Skywalker or the Palpatine line ought to be able to match Mara, you'd think. Or I would think. I dunno. Then again, I have my own take on who Mara's parents are, based on something that seemed only logical to me, but is probably nothing Zahn ever had in mind.

Hey, regarding why Luke turned.... if he knew about the prophecy, I wonder if he might have felt it had to happen sooner or later.... as Rage reflects that he's done this for ALL the children, that could make some sort of sense. I have never bought that Luke would turn out of powerlust, simple lack of ethics, or anything that would turn Anakin or Leia or most other characters. I think Luke would only turn under duress - in an attempt to save someone else that goes bad. That's what almost happens in JEDI, after all.

I'm so rambling. SHUT UP, TREECAVE!

 

DesignSith & TreeCave - ACK! I'm so sorry!!! Yes, DesignSith YOU were the one who pointed out the Ghent-Mara connection, and TreeCave, I totally missed your reference to Melody's fake Force channeling. *sigh* This is why I should never post while on cold medicine & no sleep.

Melody has more than that fake little Force episode to make her suspicious though. Don't forget her piloting skills, and Han's immediate willingness to hand control of the Falcon over to her while they were blasting out of Tatooine. I don't think Han would turn over flying under fire to just anybody, good pilot or not.

But then again, there are perfectly ordinary explanations for all of these little things for Melody, so it may be all designed to send us on a wild goose chase.

And DesignSith, LOL, you don't like that twist of GL's, eh? That one took me by surprise, too, but if it comes from him, I'll accept it 'cause this is his baby. I'm not so generous with the EU.

Alai is certianly one big wildcard. I thought of something else, though. I think we can safely rule Rage out as a parent since Palp would likely have known about that, and I doubt he would have knowingly trained any female Skywalker descendants based on his nightmares.

And I completely agree with TreeCave's assessments on the factors that might cause Luke to fall. That bit about him doing all this for the children is very interesting, but I hadn't thought to connect that with his possible knowledge of the prophecy when he fell. That whole blank part of history is really driving me crazy as I read, and I think Lisse is going to continue torturing us with it 'til just about the very end.

 

Lisse? Torture? Oh, absolutely!

Good point about Melody's taking over the Falcon.... hmm. I think MAYBE he'd have let Luke fly it, and probably Leia. Lando even rates the third degree first, though. Hmm.

The midi-chlorian thing didn't bother me. I figure everything manifests on both a physical, measurable level and a more esoteric (metaphysical? spiritual) level. I mean, you could probably measure things like devotion or love if you only knew what you were measuring and how to do it. That doesn't change the more metaphysical aspects of it in my mind.

I would just like to add that, whatever Rage has done, sharing a bed with Roganda "Creepface" Ismaren has got to have him well along on his punishment for it. ::shudder::

 

Wow, the Melody evidence really is piling up, isn't it? It was only an offhand theory... I think I need to reread and check for clues.

Di-Lee, Don't worry about the mix-up. Hell, I didn't even notice until TreeCave pointed it out.

Padawan_Di-Lee: And DesignSith, LOL, you don't like that twist of GL's, eh? That one took me by surprise, too, but if it comes from him, I'll accept it 'cause this is his baby. I'm not so generous with the EU.

I think using such an obvious part of Christian mythology is way lame. There are several non-Xian ways around it, but I don't think GL is clever enough for that. He really needs to go back to getting other people to write the scripts...

Well, that's my issue. I don't accept much, really. That's why I perfer fanfic.

Padawan_Di-Lee: That whole blank part of history is really driving me crazy as I read, and I think Lisse is going to continue torturing us with it 'til just about the very end.

Oh gods, yes. I want the history here SO BADLY. ::whimper::

 

Hey, DS -

I think using such an obvious part of Christian mythology is way lame.

Actually, there's a virgin birth in, oh, just about every religion or cultural body of myth ever spawned on earth. Difference here is, the "chosen one" is not a deliverer - he's a destroyer, a scourge. He destroys the Jedi, he destroys the Sith. With Anakin, we have someone more akin to, say, the Hindu goddess of destruction, being conceived in the way most religions have their most holy, wonderful people being born. I thought it was kind of unique, viewed from that perspective.

I'm not trying to argue - I just hope this perspective might make it more palatable to you. I too dislike the idea of anything obviously Christian, American, earthly, etc. showing up in SW. The EU writers really tick me off with that sometimes. ARGH!

 

TreeCave - I've known that. But to a vast majority of people, Jesus is the best known. I think that even may have tainted my view of it in other cultures.

I would just rather it be something more suprising and less indusive to me rolling my eyes.

 

Hmmmm. Is it just me, or does anybody else notice the absence of our beloved author?

Come out, come out where ever you are, Lisse. I know you're probably giggling maniacally at our rampant spectulation. Come let us know if anything we've tossed out is close at all, or at least give us a misdirect, if you must.