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TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.14 - Eminence - discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Seerow, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Jun 29, 2003
    Nar.... Hutta?[face_hypnotized]

    That's one I wouldn't put past Filoni & co.

    Sienar strikes again!
    Speaking of which, I wonder if Maul's ever going to find out that Saesee swiped his ship?
    CT-867-5309 likes this.
  2. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 28, 2003
    I take "will of the Force" to essentially refer to the Force guiding a person's instincts. Like when Qui-Gon tells Anakin, "feel, don't think; use your instincts." Or again when Qui-Gon tells Anakin that he will hear the midichlorians "speaking" to him when he learns to "quiet his mind" (which I interpret as Qui-Gon basically telling Anakin again to trust instincts over thinking).

    Now of course Obi-Wan says the exact opposite in AOTC and tells Anakin to think and not act so impulsively, but I'd like to think he's been sneaking sips from a flask off camera :p

    "Will of the Force" doesn't really bother me. I don't interpret it as referring to the Force having a consciousness. Just that the Force that permeates everything can guide a person's actions and is thus given credit when a person trusts their instincts and it pays off.
    InterestingLurker and eht13 like this.
  3. fistofan1

    fistofan1 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 8, 2009
    Forget the Force and Waru-- Raith Sienar runs the galaxy!
  4. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003
    The Orsis destroyer was only telling Vizla what he wanted to hear, the force is a tool to Maul...
    Seerow likes this.
  5. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 7, 2011
    Yeah I didn't put much stake into it in this case when Maul talked about the will of the force. Maul getting picked up by Deathwatch, an enemy of Obi-wan and the Jedi was an opportunity. Maul was using all his guile and telling Vizsla exactly what he wanted to hear to snow him into allying. Cool words and a show of power. Not all that different from what Vader did in ANH to remind them the Force isn't a myth. The first step in his plan apparently.
    pronker and SithStarSlayer like this.
  6. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 28, 2003
    Maul started giving information before Vizsla. He had no way to really know what Vizsla wanted to hear, because Vizsla didn't give his story until after. For all Maul knew, Vizsla could have been allied with the CIS and may have turned him over to Dooku.

    Which is why I found it so awkward that he's so forthcoming in proclaiming himself a Sith. If he was trying to win Vizsla over, it seems like telling the truth, that he was a former Sith exiled after being defeated by Obi-Wan Kenobi would strike a common ground with Vizsla a lot better than proclaiming himself a true lord of the Sith, after Sith already backstabbed Vizsla once. But he had nothing to go on since he starts spilling the truth immediately once Bo-Katan points her pistol at Savage.
  7. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 7, 2011
    Maul knew soon as he heard Kenobi's name and the hatred in Vizsla's voice he had a guy he could tell some awesome stuff to and snow him. He was also able to recognize the symbol on Vizsla's helmet. Its a bigger wonder why Vizsla didn't listen to Bo since he'd been doublecrossed by Dooku previously and apparently wanted revenge. That apparently isn't something that is going to get followed up on either.

    Maul is just being arrogant and proclaiming himself a Sith Lord. He was trying to sound sincere and let Vizsla be in control and make him feel in control so it would be real easy to snow him. Vizsla is getting rather upset now because he knows he's being lied to, he knows he should have listen to Bo, and no one likes getting told their vision in planning sucks. The leader of Deathwatch really doesn't like being told that infront of his followers but he wants to take Satine down bad enough he can't stop.
  8. SpecialOpsUnit

    SpecialOpsUnit Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 1, 2007
    As someone who is/was against the idea of bring back Maul, they're really knocking it out of the park with the character, he's slowly but easily becoming the show's best villain. It doesn't help how great Witmer is at voicing him. It's amazing how much you can see Sideous in Maul's actions in this episode. Sideous would be so proud if Maul was still apart of his plans. Just going off of this episode, it's obvious why Sideous will take care of Maul and Oppress personally.

    Besides the pacing and the lion sounds, I didn't have any problems with the episode. Obviously gaining the army was way too quick, but if it stretched to 2 episodes, we would complain too so there is no point to really complain. I see it as this, join Maul or die. He tried making it easy and reasonable with both the Black Sun and the Hutt Clan, but they denied his "generous" offer.

    Vizsla with that combo and the background music on Nal Hutta was amazing, not the biggest fan of the darksaber but it was awesome there.

    I really wish they could do more arcs like this, instead of wasting 4 episodes on a bunch of droids.
  9. Theo333

    Theo333 Jedi Master star 3

    Mar 29, 2011
    You know, after thinking about it: Vizsla doesn't sound like the guy who would enjoy being second fiddle no matter how powerful the guy next to him is and would cajole for at least equal power sharing. I'm sure it wouldn't be smart, but I feel miffed that Vizsla didn't bring up the point that his clan saved Maul and his brother's life when Maul started mouthing off to him.

    He doesn't really take part in the "negotiations" and just kinda stands around in the back while Maul uses brute force and fear to subjugate the cartels. Now, I can understand Maul's "tactics" for dealing with these minor groups, but when confronting the Hutt Cartel on their home turf it seems completely stupid for Vizsla not even to warn Maul that it's a stupid idea to use the same exact thing he did for the others, as he's clearly supposed to be the smarter guy.

    I do like Maul's "Brutish but cunning" traits coming out in contrast to Vizsla's "Cunning but brutish" but I want to see more Viszla showing that he's truly Maul's equal here with or without Force powers.
    Barriss_Coffee likes this.
  10. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Aug 15, 2011
    Epic duel!!!
    Barriss_Coffee likes this.
  11. Asharak

    Asharak Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 23, 2003

    I would add the Mandalore trilogy as number 4, butt agree completely with your first three picks. IMHO this is "The" storyline of the series(so far), and it will probably in the end be the most memorable aspect of the show.
    The Shadow Emperor likes this.
  12. Super_Battle_Droid

    Super_Battle_Droid Jedi Master star 5

    May 8, 2002
    Did the Pykes remind anyone else of the aliens from Independence Day? Big head, little face.
    InterestingLurker likes this.
  13. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 28, 2003
    I'm talking about as soon as he wakes up. The bit with the helmet didn't come until he was up and walking around, right? (I honestly don't remember). When he was laying in bed when he first wakes up and Bo points her blaster at Savage, Maul immediately spills his guts on who he is, which was weird IMO that he would be so forthcoming right away when the galaxy is in the middle of a war with both sides being enemies to Maul. I would have expected him to have a little more sense to lie about who he is rather than declare himself true lord of the Sith to someone that for all he knows could be loyal to Dooku. He might know who the Death Watch are, but I think it's unreasonable for him to have been kept up on current events such as Dooku's betrayal of them, considering he's been plotting against Obi-Wan and been on the run from the Jedi.

    By declaring himself Sith, there's a 98% (a Galaxy of people ignorant on the matter) chance that the person he's talking to won't know what he's talking about. A 1% (Jedi and those close to Dooku) that would know and would want Maul in custody/dead. But Maul luckily finds the 1% (Death Watch) that knows what a Sith is from their dealings with Dooku, but have been betrayed by them. Of course the odds would really be way, way lower than 1%.

    When Vizsla actually started demonstrating knowledge of the Sith. "Oh, do you serve Count Dooku ... I thought there could only be two Sith," if I were Maul and Lieutenant Dan'd on a table and some soldier actually knows what a Sith is (indicating he may be working with one - like Sidious or Dooku), I'd be inclined to think that's a bad sign. Yet Maul keeps talking, telling the truth, and he finds the one guy in the galaxy that all of his answers appeal to.

    Same with when Vizsla asks Maul which Jedi he is referring to. There are supposed to be thousands of Jedi. How many does Vizsla honestly know except Obi-Wan and maybe Ahsoka (did he ever get her name?) He's got a 1/10000 odds of hearing a name he knows and 9999/10000 odds of shrugging. So that seems like a question not worth asking, but Vizsla hit the jackpot with that question.

    I said it before, but with that kind of luck, Vizsla and Maul should just retire and dominate Nar Shadda's Sabaac tables. They could then use that money to buy out the commerce guilds :p
  14. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003
    Upon further review, this episode is even awesomer.
    V-2, Sitara, rumblewagon and 2 others like this.
  15. InterestingLurker

    InterestingLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 15, 2011
    I hope not. I would absolutely love a series that didn't have anything to do with the Jedi or the Sith(that means no lightsabers). Maybe mentions here and there, but that's it.
  16. Billy_Dee_Binks

    Billy_Dee_Binks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 29, 2002
    Well, this is weird. I saw the episode yesterday and... I don't recall that many stand-out moments.
    Yes, it was filled with awesome sauce, but for reason nothing really stood out for me. What is wrong with me?

    I have only very few observations to make:

    - I liked how Savage and Maul fell victim to the coldness of space in their drifting escape module. A very cool opening, if you allow the pun.

    - I wish that first dialogue scene between Viszla and Maul had been set up a little differently, by having Maul recuperating in a Bacta Tank. That way they could have payed visual homage to not only TESB but more directly, the SW Visionaries backstory of General Grievous. It certainly would have given the scene more variety and atmosphere.

    - The episode felt a little too much like it was about a bunch of "cupscouts ringing doorbells around the neighborhood". Maybe that's because of the limited run time, but I actually got tired of seeing those cool Mandalorian Fighters approach planet after planet.

    - While I found it very funny how Yoda took out the Royal Guards in ROTS, I didn't find it all that great how easily those Gamorrean Guard's were defeated in this episode. They could have given Savage a good brawl.

    - Yay! The Hutt Clan is back!

    - Okay, I don't mind TCW reusing base models all the time, but with the amount of Nikto Guards we've seen pop up on this show, you have to wonder if Jabba placed an order on Kamino for a whole army of them.

    - I think the fan-servicing hit its peak when the female Zabrak Bounty Hunter got into a fight with Maul. I'm glad she survived, but I don't know how she could. Maybe Maul wanted to spare a fellow Zabrak. Do I hear a future love story, the likes of Ventress and Kenobi?;)

    Don't get me wrong, folks. I liked the episode, but I wasn't in awe over it. Maybe it's because so much of Viszla's and Maul's dialogue had been revealed to us through all the previews and trailers. Or because, unlike the past two arcs, it didn't feature that completely fresh idea. It had lots of cool moments, but perhaps they played it a little too safe, story wise.

    I will definitely give the episode another go once the arc is completed, to see how my second impression will be like in the context of the full story.
  17. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Jun 29, 2003
    ^ I think one of the main issues it suffered from was a serious lack of the usual exposition->rising action->conflict->climax->falling action->resolution plot sequence we see in most stories. At no point was there a climax. You'd maybe expect one when they went to Jabba's palace, but things went down there smoother than on Mustafar.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  18. fett 4

    fett 4 Force Ghost star 5

    Jan 2, 2000

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jun 8, 2002
    Yeah, I am now seeing what Filoni meant when he stated that he would not waste this opportunity with Maul. He's got him acting Vader-like, which is kind of cool.

    Actually, if you factor in the Revival episode (which I'm sure took place right afterwards, considering the brothers' plight in space) there were two episodes that were used to form his army.

    Yeah, they finally made Vizsla's Deathwatch a force to be reckoned with

    I totally agree. They better make this arc at least four episodes long.
  20. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 24, 2004
    "I am the droid brought to you by LEGO."
    Wow, what a fast-paced and exciting episode!
    Sam Witwer brings malice, malevolence, and terrifying intelligence to Darth Maul that was barely apparent in TPM (except perhaps when he spoke his few lines to Sidious). It's obvious why Darth Sidious chose him for an apprentice. It also saddens me that those who cannot accept Darth Maul's return simply will not ever be able to appreciate how an incredible expansion of this villain's character is evolving.
    + great action and visuals.
    + love the double-crossing and scheming between Maul/Savage and Death Watch that is taking place.
    + love Bo-Katan and her Mandalorian warrior sisters.
    + love the return of the bounty hunters (Embo, Lats Razzi, Sugi, Dengar).
    - some of the violence was needless and seemed overly gratuitous (such as at Jabba's palace).
  21. Trebor Sabreon

    Trebor Sabreon LACWAC-y Mod of SWTV & New Films Force projection star 4 Staff Member Manager

    Sep 15, 2010

    I largely agree with the above. While I see how the goals of DW and the goon squad do each hinge on Obi-Wan (so I’m willing to wait and see how it all plays out before I condemn the idea out-o-hand), for me, Maul + Death Watch feels mostly like an appeasement to a faction of the fan base I don’t identify with, so it’s less an awesome moment and more a “this had better work out” kind of thing. The fact that Kenobi is one of my two SW heroes does bode well for me over the next couple of weeks, but I’m not as gung-ho going into this thing as I might otherwise be.

    Atom Bomb’s description of this week’s episode as “unremarkable… build-up” hinging largely on the results of the remainder of the arc, is, I feel, pretty fair. This indeed was mostly build-up. The happy news is that for two-thirds of the show, it was enjoyable build-up which did its job by whetting my appetite for more. Strangely, given TCW’s track-record of offering what I consider satisfying action and higher-quality third acts, it was the scenes set both on Nal Hutta and Tatooine which left me feeling underwhelmed. I was enjoying one of the stronger episodes of Season 5 before the roll-call of fan-favorite bounty hunters began to appear.

    I don’t know, the battles just felt tacked-on, as if we, as an audience, are considered incapable of enjoying an episode filled with preparation and anticipation, successfully laying the foundation for more exciting events to come, minus the obligatory shoot-‘em-up eye candy. Who knows, maybe we wouldn’t be able to live without it, but I sure would have liked to have had the chance to find out. I love Star Wars action as much as anyone ever has, but sometimes – sometimes – it just isn’t what the doctor ordered. In this case, things were going just fine, thank you.

    In fact, once the action began to heat up, there was only one thing I was thinking may have been able to justify it all. As Maul and his goons stood threatening Jabba, I was so wishing for Jabba to laugh in their faces and spring that trap-door on them. A battle between the invaders and a nice, hungry rancor may have served to win me back. Oh, well.

    In the end, the one thing this episode has done for me is to highlight Maul and his shortcomings, more than ever before.

    Despite his assertions, Maul has been shown to lack the resources, the cunning, the guile, the sense of timing and most importantly, for someone who dressed down the admittedly short-sighted Pre Vizsla, the vision required in achieving a victory of any note or substance.

    Oh sure, he'll run hither and fro across the galaxy, using his talents for the Force and his deep well of hatred to destroy innocent lives, tearing a scar into the galaxy as long and as deep as a Death Star’s trench, all the while spouting platitudes through his rotted teeth - "Revenge!" and the like, as if they were little pearls of wisdom, the key to unlocking his grand plan. Yes, we'll hear all about his hatred for Obi-Wan and his desired “Revenge of the true Sith!"

    Now don’t get me wrong, I’m certain that Maul and his apprentice will most assuredly leave a very dark and personal mark (I've no spoilers to offer, but my guess is that the good Duchess Satine will wind up having to pay for Kenobi's "sins"), but the man deludes himself into thinking he is a player on the galactic scale. Unfortunately for Maul and his puppy-dog apprentice, the gifts Maul lacks for are the same qualities Darth Sidious boasts in spades. Yes, the Sith will see to it that Maul will have his feet cut out from under him (see what I did there?) long before he has any real leg to stand on (I'm afraid I've done it again). I've only seen the trailers released last summer, but I think we all know what is coming.

    The sad thing is that I think that there is an avenue of salvation of some sort and it’s staring Maul right in the face. This is, of course, the brotherhood offered by Savage. Some men are born evil and some men have evil thrust upon them and, though yes, Opress is a monster, but I’m still somehow convinced that, beyond the influence of the Dark Side and Talzin’s spirit ichor, there is still some small trace of the good man we were shown back on Dathomir and he’s already demonstrated his desire to forge a personal relationship with his brother, far away from the affairs of the Jedi, the Sith and the Clone War. Unfortunately, any chance for Maul to carve out a life free of the overriding influence of the Sith - a life where Maul can finally choose for himself - is lost because this is all Maul knows. It’s all he has ever known and he cannot see his way past his hatred. Again, the man lacks vision.

    The final shame of it all is that we may wind up watching as Savage is taken down with his brother. I only hope that, for his own sake, Savage is somehow able to free himself from Talzin’s spell and finally see his way past his blind loyalty to his brother. My concern is that should Opress finally make a break from Maul, it will be written as a power grab, rather than the realization by Savage that there is more to life than murder, revenge and the quest for power.

    We’ll see just where the rest of this arc takes us. It’s off to an intriguing enough start and I’m hopeful that we’ll be treated to a story to remember.

    As a final note, to put it bluntly, the lion’s roar is patently ridiculous and how something so painfully silly is getting past the show’s quality-control contingent is beyond be.
  22. Togruta

    Togruta Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 30, 2010
    I don't mind the lion roar for Savage.
  23. The Shadow Emperor

    The Shadow Emperor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 29, 2012
    Neither do I. He's growled and roared before, so what's so wrong with it?
    V-2 likes this.
  24. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 5, 2011
    Wow, brilliantly stated TreborSabreon.

    Very impressed with your ability to put into words so many of my own feelings toward this episode, the build up, Maul's lacking and Savage's potential salvation.

    And Jabba's trap door would have been amazing! Great idea.

    You guys are really coming on strong, good job, LACWAC. I don't have the passion for it right now, so I'm not really bringing it. Keep it coming, guys.
    TreborSabreon likes this.
  25. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 24, 2004
    Bask in its glowing blackness, CT-867-5309. Bask yourself in it!