TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.15 - Shades of Reason - discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Seerow, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Double post
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 26, 2013
  2. Dynoblaze Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 16, 2010
    star 1
    He was lifted up into the air by Vader, Vader WALKED to the railing and threw him into the reactor. So, again. However many two handed lightsaber moves or one hand gesture force chokes he pulls off. No matter how many senate pods he throws at Yoda. No matter how badass he is in The Force Unleashed. Sidious can be owned by walking up behind him and picking him up.
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  3. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    He didn't gain his leadership through anything close to honorable combat, but dirty plot that deceived his people, why should he care about a Sith' challenge?
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  4. QuangoFett Force Ghost

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    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    "They" (referring to the Mandalorian population) would just throw their support behind whichever nationalist group could credibly overthrow the Separatist regime. That's what Dooku predicted they'd do if the Republic merely put clone troopers on the streets in support of the established government.
  5. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    He once slaughtered the leadership of the Black Sun just by himself, his lightsaber would be activated before those guards shot fire. Why would some Naboo guards trouble him?
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  6. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Every other person that gets hit by Force lightning goes to the ground immediately. Luke collapses immediately; Anakin (when hit by Dooku) is thrown to the wall and is immobile for the duration of Dooku's fight with Obi-Wan; Mace is able to stay on his feet, but he's pretty thoroughly stunned and helpless (the old sw.com implied he was dead before he ever hit the ground); Yoda is hit and rendered immobile for a while.

    Vader on the other hand is pretty much a lightning rod, he gets a huge sustained blast of it that nobody other than Mace receives, and yet Vader is able to push through the pain and kill Palpatine to save Luke. Yes, Palpatine was defeated by someone walking behind him and picking him up, but if that person was anyone other than Vader going all out papa bear on Sidious, I think they would probably have collapsed immediately under the onslaught of lightning and would have been killed.

    Because they are all armed and are many. He is one, unarmed, and has two Jedi to contend with as well. His arms can only be in one place at a time.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 26, 2013
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  7. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    She did nothing as a politician other than tell people to calm down, that's quite weak for her. If she truly care of her people, she should run away and try to discover the plot behind the Death Watch.

    Even peace require power to ensure, as a leader, when the nation was under attack and conspiracy she should make move rather than do nothing.
  8. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Already addressed (bolded).
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  9. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

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    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    EDIT: removed for redundancy.
    Last edited by ImNotAStarWarsFanboy, Jan 26, 2013
  10. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

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    They were all ready to open fire against Maul brothers. Killing Maul brothers wouldn't get any problem with them, especially Bo-Katan and her troops.
  11. Dathomir-Witch Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2013
    star 2
    First impression of the episode: The duel was very well done, I felt (a little bit) sorry for Vizsla - did somebody else notice that he lost some teeth? - and I liked the mix of politics and fights. A little bit fast paced in the first half, but I don't really mind that.

    Two more thigs: I don't remember who mentioned it, but that Satine painting in the hall is scary! And seriously, who puts two force-users in one prison cell out of glass?
  12. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    And what difference does that make? Most conquered nations aren't going to throw their support in with their conquerors. A pacifist ally isn't really much of a help in war time. The people throwing their support in with the Republic isn't really affecting anything at that point. They have no troops to contribute in a unified effort. All they do is apparently stand outside the palace and whine.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 26, 2013
  13. DarthTalgus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    This episode was a bit rushed but still awesome 7 / 10
    +Maul and Savage was awesome
    -Oh how much i hate Bo-Katan such a bad character no words can describe my hate :mad:
    +Awesome duel
    -Weakest guards i have ever seen
    +Great dialogue
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  14. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    He would get armed before they shot fire due to his power, and Black Sun's elite guards are much bigger threat than the Naboo ones. He could deflects many gun fire to keep the Jedi from getting close and keep running away and strike back when the time right. It's not like he would just stand there, as we can see later in the fight.
  15. Dynoblaze Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2010
    star 1
    Pre Vizsla is just that good. I'm just making fun of the force junkies who think anytime a non force user is as good as force user is only because the force user was holding back for some mysterious reason.

    It still doesn't make sense though. Clearly Vizsla was using his gadgets and the Mandos don't have a problem with that. It would show how superior he was if he did beat a force user that was going all out. If I were Vizsla the minute it became hand to hand it would have been "Hey, remember that flamethrower I used earlier? SAY HI AT CLOSE RANGE!!!" or even the wrist lasers would have worked....(I guess burning insects alive is okay for kids but burning people? Noooo...) Likewise Showing that he could beat Vizsla with a gesture would show how dangerous AND better Maul is as a warrior...
  16. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Throwing their support in with their conquerors? Why would they do that? You misunderstand my point. In S2, Dooku theorised that the Mandalorians would back the CIS-aligned Death Watch if the Republic put clone boots on the ground. They'd back whatever anti-CIS nationalist force there is if there are battle droids on the streets. The Mandalorians, even the civilians, are supposed to be proudly nationalist. That makes a huge difference when trying to subdue a conquered people.

    So a nationalist faction has the best chance of seizing power. Much better than the core CIS at any rate.
    Last edited by QuangoFett, Jan 26, 2013
  17. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Next week we are going to see Sidious get stupid for going there by himself when he got so many people to use.
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  18. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Vizsla seemed to be wearing armor that was pretty standard issue among the Death Watch. I don't think there was anything perceived as underhanded about using all the weapons at his disposal, since had he been traditionally challenged by a fellow Death Watch member, they would likely have the same tools to make use of. As for Maul: I can't say for certain. He was walking a fine line in challenging Vizsla. As Almec says, traditional law would require the Death Watch to obey the victor, but Bo also seems to imply that such a confrontation with an outsider for the position was completely unorthodox. And it wasn't just her, there were others that went with her and rejected Maul's leadership.

    If Maul was already walking a fine line in being an outsider, using the Force may have been perceived as fighting dishonorably. Or like I suggested earlier, it may have been someone more along the lines of Maul just wanting to put Vizsla in his place and show to him that he was the better warrior and mock him. If as soon as the fight began Maul choked Vizsla with the Force and then snapped his neck, I don't know that anyone would necessarily have followed Maul. It was different when Vizsla was defeated by superior hand to hand combat and acknowledged Maul as the strongest. I think that has a much bigger psychological impact on the Death Watch, since Vizsla is pretty much proclaiming Maul his successor at that point (giving Maul legitimacy).

    I'm saying that in conventional war, there are generally no pacifists. Therefore playing such an angle would have worth. I.E. if country A invades country B, they are generally going to need a cause to do so to have the support of the people, because the population of country B could otherwise revolt and country C could use that as an excuse to invade country B as well to challenge or drive out country A.

    But with a pacifist nation, that dynamic really doesn't seem like it's going to matter. The population is pacifist... they can't really revolt they don't have soldiers or arms to do that, just a small security Force. So country B is no threat. There is only country A and C which are going to come to blows regardless. If A invades B or C invades B first isn't relevant, since A and B will come to blows either way and B can be oppressed to serving whomever. Nominal support isn't worth much.

    I compared it to the last Han Emperor whose regime fell under the Yellow Turban Rebellion, which began when a string of natural disasters and famine hit the country and the Emperor couldn't do anything about it, and so peasants rebelled and pretty much spread chaos everywhere and began to pillage, with the Emperor being completely helpless in restoring order. Satine's security forces couldn't do anything about invading criminals and she pretty much just withdraws into her chambers and sits there. And like the Death Watch, power instead fell into the hands of the regional governors that could do something about it. And then those regional governors then would exploit the Emperor by marching into the capital, pretty much turning the Emperor into a hostage and ruling in his name by coercing the Emperor to declare them his prime minister and being coerced to denounce other governors, etc. And the Emperor passed from the control of several regional lords in that way. It pretty much became "knock, knock. I'm conquering you. Make me prime minister please." With no force to oppose regional lords from doing so, whether or not the Emperor or his loyalists support these lords from usurping the government isn't entirely relevant.

    Sure, the Emperor did get involved in a conspiracy to oust some of his captors by encouraging other lords to invade and liberate him. But his "support" is completely worthless. The only thing he has to give is to become the next person's puppet. There is no incentive/threat to encourage a conqueror to leave.

    The CIS and Republic would end up clashing over Mandalore anyway. Dooku could at least have gotten a foothold with zero military resistance and create a defensible position. As opposed to encouraging the Republic to make the first move and then trying to drive them from Mandalore. He has to fight them either way, and Mandalore really has nothing to give.

    And there are always going to be the Rashs and Dendups of the nation that throw their support in with the conquerors and help control the population.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 26, 2013
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  19. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Feb 28, 2003
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    EDIT: sorry for the repeated double posts.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 26, 2013
  20. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Maul is not a good user of ranged Force technique like Sidious or Dooku.
  21. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    he is mostly a duelist cause we don't really see Maul use the force all that much
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  22. Order66Survivor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2012
    star 1
    put it on any channel you want, just give the show a time slot that recognizes it's our only Star Wars cinematic material right now..... CN has so many dumb shows i don't even know what they're going for
  23. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I still like CW's fighting style better.

    Like



    and

    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 26, 2013
  24. AkashKedavra_93 Emperor of the Seven Realms and the First Dragons

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    Jan 8, 2011
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    That Dantooine sequence is just ridiculous, and so is Grievous standing up to three Jedi Masters and not getting a scratch IMHO.

    Watched the episode a second time. Still as brilliant, really makes me wish this arc could have been extended.
  25. Dynoblaze Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2010
    star 1
    Or not so unorthodox. Revan did it.