TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.15 - Shades of Reason - discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Seerow, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4

    However, the Mandalorian population isn't pacifist in the sense that they fully embrace pacifism. They're ready to embrace militarism at the drop of a hat. They still have security forces, weapons and enough of a military-industrial complex to indigenously produce armour, vehicles and weaponry. There are active ultranationalist groups like Death Watch in existence, and plenty of adept paramilitary fighters serving with them. The New Mandalorian government may fold like paper, but the population does not necessarily have to follow. If the CIS just strolled into power on Mandalore like you described, it could potentially face a much stronger resistance than what the Umbarans give the Republic in S4.

    The threat of having to wage a protracted, costly counter-insurgency campaign against nationalists at the height of galactic conflict is what seems to be deterring both the CIS and the Republic from moving against the New Mandalorian government, judging by how the situation is portrayed in TCW. It would give them a defensible position in which they'd almost always be on the defensive from the Mandalorian nationalists, and which would be weak enough for the other side to eliminate it with minimal effort. Also keeping the Republic from intervening is Mandalore's neutrality which, in practice due to the fact that recognising the legitimacy of the CIS would effectively be siding with it, means that Mandalore is de facto pro-Loyalist already. They certainly would like Mandalore and its fellow neutral systems to join the fight, but they're halfway tolerant of their neutrality as they're not actively Separatist. After the events of S2, the CIS seems to have given up on bringing Mandalore under its control by S4. Both sides would rather commit their resources elsewhere.

    Interesting comparison to the Yellow Turban Rebellion. TCW does closely mirror that. However, if the CIS or Republic tried this on the New Mandalorian government, they'd probably face a situation similar to the Boxer Rebellion. It was often harder to get Chinese commoners riled up about Chinese politicians and strongmen pushing their emperor around than it was to get them irate at foreigners doing the same. Same with the Mandalorians, some of whom deny that Maul legitimately defeats Vizsla even after the latter concedes. The Europeans, Japanese and Americans won that war against the Boxers and their Imperial allies, but they were not caught in the total global conflict of the world wars when they waged it.
    Last edited by QuangoFett, Jan 26, 2013
  2. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I think it's ok to be pacifist, but as the leader, Satine should establish good defense system against invasion, and at least know to get away when it's necessary.
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  3. SpecialOpsUnit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2007
    star 4
    I understand the criticism of the first half of the episode. It was very fast paced and the staged crimes didn't look as threatening or dangerous as they were supposed to be to the audience imo. I also don't see this happening over one day though, I feel like this was at least a few days. It would of been nice if a throwaway line like "its been days of these gangsters ruining our streets" or something along those lines. It would of just made things a little better.

    I can believe how fast the people submitted to Death Watch, in reality they were the only ones that could deal with this situation, the mandolorian guards were getting owned like it was nobody's business. They were their only chance at liberating their city. Now the ending with the crowd even believing that Satine killed Vizsla is really stupid, I'm not gonna go into depth of it but just the idea of it is ludicrous, I'm sure they could of thought of something better.

    The duel was amazing regardless, Maul not using the force leveled the playing field a bit with Vizsla using all his gadgets at his disposal. The best part of the duel was how Vizsla would do the same moves again and Maul learning from that. From expecting the elbows to the face to Vizsla attacking and then kicking him out of the air the second time he activated his jetpack. Maul was learning throughout the duel and waiting for his chance to strike, something he's been doing these past two episodes, being very patient. Now did Maul not use the force out of respect for Mandalorian culture? Or did he want to show the Death Watch members that Vizsla surrounds himself with, which we can assume are his top guys, that he can beat Vizsla even without the force, just with sheer skill and proving to them that he is the better warrior?

    Bo Katan's escape was awesome and I really liked the small fake duel between Vizsla and Savage.

    I'd give the episode a 7/10, a step down from Eminence but still a solid enjoyable episode due to a strong second half of the episode, I would say when Maul and Pre Vizsla meet in the throne room the first time on is when it starts to get good.
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  4. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Guys, the gif isn't happening. It's just too big. The first one I rendered was in the same quality as the others (600 x 337 pixels, 15fps) and it was 290MB big, and some 2,282 frames. And about halfway through it got so choppy that it was basically unwatchable. I made a lower quality one but it was still too big and choppy. So yeah. The Sids duel isn't happening either.

    To compensate, I plan on uploading the duel as an unlisted video on my YouTube account. I don't think I have any strikes on my main one and hopefully if it's unlisted and it's only the duel then I won't get penalised. This won't happen until the iTunes version is released though as I hate having the Cartoon Network watermark in the way of the vid.
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  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    OK, my play by play:


    Savage knowing right away that Vizsla would betray them? Really? And Vizsla's "plan" seemed convoluted at best from the beginning.

    Satine's reaction to the attack by the Pike clan: *headdesk* For ****'s sake, woman, grow a ****ing spine. Has Mandalore never been attacked in your lifetime? And how the hell did you ever get elected leader if your reaction to adversity is to cry and beg?

    "You're the Death Watch! You're bad!" "But we could save you from some thugs?" "Oh, OK." What. The. ****.

    So Satine gets taken down in about two nanoseconds, is in jail, and she's still preaching. Again, how in the hell did she get elected? Vizsla and Bo Katan are right; cowardice and abandonment of her people. As I said, it makes pacifists look like idealistic spineless morons instead of, I don't know, people who simply believe war should be avoided whenever possible.

    Where the hell did the comment about children come from? It would have made sense if we had actually seen some children prior to her statement.

    Ah, the duel challenge. For ****'s sake, is this the GFFA or 19th century America? The Middle Ages?

    Yeah, Bo Katan was totally ****ing Vizsla.

    And really? The Mandalorians are so ****ing stupid that they'd believe that Satine murdered Vizsla?

    ...Don't answer that one.

    Overall, I felt like I was watching the rendition of a very bad fan fic written by a 12-year-old with a crush on Darth Maul and a not-so-secret wish to be Mandalorian and fly around with a cool jet pack. Said 12-year-old also has pro-war parents with very negative views of pacifists.

    1/10 is being generous. This episode sucked worse than Sunny Day in the Void, and that's saying something.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jan 26, 2013
  6. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    I believe she was talking about the poisoned tea. I wouldn't blame you if you don't remember those godawful episodes.
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  7. Dathomir-Witch Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2013
    star 2
    I never understand what Vizsla is saying when they arrest Maul right after he arrived, I only hear him mentioning Kenobi. Can somebody help me?
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Apparently he cut some deal with Maul about getting Kenobi. That would make sense if we had ever seen it happen.
  9. Jabba_The_Hutt_123 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2003
    star 3
    Didn't he mention revenge on Kenobi, he'll suffer for his trespass.
  10. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    [face_hypnotized] @ Pre Vizla. Now that is how you go down swinging, Mandalorian style.
  11. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    "The transition of power will be seamless. We now have the support of our people and Satine to bait Kenobi. With his demise our deal will be complete.

    "Your oversight requires correction. We now have a base. An army. And the means to expand to other neutral systems."

    "It wasn't an oversight. It was intentional. I don't have an interest in the other systems. Your vision no longer matters.

    (Maul is arrested)

    "Oh don't fret, I'll still honor our deal. Kenobi will be dealt with. But now you'll do as I say."
    Last edited by ImNotAStarWarsFanboy, Jan 26, 2013
  12. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Which raises the question of why Dooku even bothered with Death Watch then. They are a relatively small force that can't even challenge Satine's security forces without raising an army, and in that regard they turn to off-worlders. Maul at least had the right idea to make the foreigners the boogeymen for Vizsla to triumph over.

    But with Dooku, he backed a domestic boogeyman (a relatively weak domestic boogeyman) to create a threat that would lure the Republic to Mandalore and be perceived as conquerors. He could have bribed any group to do the same, which could have destabilized things even more if he hadn't approached Death Watch first, since they could serve as a counter-view to pacifism and help spin popular opinion in favor of joining the Separatists; or the Republic could step in and be perceived as conquerors; or Death Watch could deal with the problem and oust Satine, and with their militaristic ideals and hate of the Jedi, they would be more amenable when approached by the CIS, etc.
  13. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    Not quite as thrilling as last week, but lots of fun. 8 or 9 out of 10.

    Maul seems to be creating a microcosm of Sidious's galactic plan, but doing it very publicly... Is he baiting Sidious? Is he trying to spell out the master plan to the Jedi? Is this a sign of limited intellect or is he up to something more long term?* His power over Deathwatch and Mandalore can't last.

    *These are not questions I'd like to be spoiled, just in case anyone doesn't realise that.

    PS: Could someone please point me to a page where I can learn about this Mando/Fando controversy?
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  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I could be wrong, and someone correct me if I am, but I think that's a reference to Karen Traviss and the Mandalorian wet dreams in her books, which are also very negative about the Jedi.
  15. Order66Survivor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2012
    star 1
    The Convenient Way
  16. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    Yeah, maybe. For what it's worth, the page I linked in my next post was the Wook' entry for the specific jet pack attributed to Death Watch during the Clone Wars, the JT-12, which were only supposed to have held 60 seconds worth of fuel at any given time.

    Still, it's up to each of us to decide for ourselves, of course, just how much wiggle room to give it. Personally, I find that it does kind of stretch the limits of believability to watch these folks soaring around at will in direct contrast to how the technology has always been portrayed. It's not like it's the biggest deal in the world or anything, but at least I can attest that 5309 isn't the only one to have noticed.
  17. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    We all noticed it. I just don't choose to make an issue of it. There are bigger transgressions that deserve more scrutiny than Death Watch having tons of fuel reserves in their back pockets.
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  18. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Maul pretty much took a back seat to the whole plan. He even says that he wants Vizsla to remain the face of their operation. And then when he's arrested, he's only referred to as a criminal. I don't think anyone on Mandalore, except the Death Watch knows that he's a Sith. So I don't think he did anything publicly that would indicate to Sidious that Maul is behind it.

    I'm guessing it was unintentional on Maul's part when Sidious finds out.

    Now as for the open transmission he sends baiting Obi-Wan in Revenge? That I don't know about. I mean, I'd think he knew that word of the transmission was going to get around to Sidious.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 26, 2013
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  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    If only that were the worst problem in this arc. But yeah, I noticed it, and it fits in with my theory that some 12-year-old new fan fic'er wrote this.
  20. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Try postimage.org
  21. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    This episode at least entertained me so I give it a 7ish score on the fight alone

    It's Mandos though. Their all about that Macho stuff. Or at least their usual incarnations
    Last edited by Esg, Jan 26, 2013
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  22. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    That's not the problem. It's too big to render flawlessly. The animation gets progressively choppier until it's almost unwatchable.
  23. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    It's possible that Satine's reaction to the troubles of S3 severely weakened the Mandalorian police force. We see her elite personal guards taking a large number of them into custody, presumably on their way to be purged out of the force on charges of corruption. In S3, members of the police force were able to overpower Satine's elite laser-deflecting (o_O) guards, so their performance against the gangsters shows noticeable deterioration.

    The takeaway from this, I believe, is not that pacifism is a problem, but that a failed state is a problem. The New Mandalorians and their state security forces could be as militarist as Vizsla; that wouldn't save them from the crippling effects of a dysfunctional government. They have the resources to mount a defence of Sundari, but they fail to do so because - as has been spelled out since S3 - the New Mandalorian government is in ruins already for a variety of reasons.
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  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The idea of Maul challenging Vizsla to a gentlemanly duel bothered me.

    You're Maul. Attack him already. You didn't challenge Qui-Gon to a duel.
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  25. Order66Survivor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2012
    star 1

    this scene to me was so dumb especially with the in-your-face exposition earlier in the episode about such an event were it to happen 5 minutes later.

    Viszla had Maul in the palm of his hands but then the Sith Lord dropped the "YOU CHICKEN, PRE?!"

    and he said "hell nah"

    results speak for themselves
    Convor likes this.