TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.15 - Shades of Reason - discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Seerow, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    Great episode today. For once I actually had no issues with the pacing. A lot of great Maul moments; he acted like Sidious a lot, even stealing some lines from him. :p Even Randy is learning a thing or two about subtlety and cunning. Good use of Black Sun and the spice-whatevers.

    The final duel was really good. It shows just how badass Mandalorians can be against Force-users. What an insult to Vizsla too, losing his head to his own weapon. But that's what happens when you deal with Sith.

    Even though I've never really liked her character, I really felt for Satine in this episode. All of her work is crumbling before her eyes, and she probably knows she's being used as bait for Obi-Wan as well. Poor woman.
  2. Coric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2011
    star 4
  3. Lord Optimus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2011
    star 2
    I liked this episode but what is the point of having the force when it comes to lightsaber combat.

    Maul should have dominated Pre Vizsla, to hold your own in a fight by using a jetpack, bombs, blasters, and a flamethrower is one thing. To rival a force user as a swordsman is another. Yes I have the same problem with Grievous being able to duel force users. Perhaps Maul was deliberately not using the force to win over the Mandalorians, I sure hope so, it was a cool fight none the less.
  4. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    GG is built with top level technology, Sifo Dyas' blood was also used to maintain his life.
    Order66Survivor and Esg like this.
  5. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    So...

    Show Spoiler
    Now that Pre Vizsla got his head chopped off, does that mean that Mandalore is... Post Vizsla?
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 6
  7. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    We've gone over this before. Force users aren't indomitable. They have an edge over normals but they can die like anyone else
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  8. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    I liked this episode, too. However, it felt as if it were lacking something. Definitely not as good as Eminence, in my opinion.
    Sundari looked particularly brilliant this episode, with the beautiful city a sad backdrop to such horrific battle. I don't know, the visuals just really did something for me this time, from the light in the Palace as Almec left the podium at the end to the twilight outside the bank when Savage and the gangsters arrived to steal the money.
    The continuity across the seasons - Almec's characteristic slimey return and the use of the same plan from Duchess of Mandalore for Death Watch's ascension to power - were something I really appreciated, giving the story added weight and connectivity with previous episodes. I really love continuity so to see Almec and Armatan return, as well of course the Duchess from Corruption etc. was something I greatly enjoyed. From what I've heard this continuity will continue.....so that pleases me.

    7/10
  9. pronker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2007
    star 3
    + Characters: Satine seeing her efforts all fall to pieces (like Padme in Ep III) and reacting as her personality dictates *I've always seen her as a diva, driven by powerful emotions .. I mean, to declare love for someone you've not seen for 15 years or so, when your own life is in danger, takes some extreme romanticism* and say, will we see Korkie-Wan Korkie again?

    Bo fiercely upholding a part of her heritage and escaping to fight another day, yaybo. *literally*

    + Plot: Oookay, Maul is on the throne for now, his plan is as he foresaw. Savage seems integral to Maul now, aiding and abetting all Maul's plans, where he didn't seem that way to me before. Will each be declared an honorary Mandalorian?

    - Pacing: I wanted to wait until everyone was gone to really concentrate on the story when the house was quiet and still the sheer quantity of characters doing stuff so quickly spun my head. Oh, well, must watch it again ... not a hardship, mainly because:

    ++++ the duel.
  10. Samayel_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2012
    star 2
    loved the duel, and i knew that i will happen, but i really wanted to see a Vizsla vs Fett rematch after "Jango Fett: open seassons" this time with Boba Fett and Pre Vizsla.
  11. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Show Spoiler
    Also, by the look she gave when Maul chopped his head off, I'm guessing Pre Vizsla had been a "Settler of Katan" a few times... if you know what I mean!
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Jan 26, 2013
  12. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
  13. KuriousJorj Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Why do people think Maul didn't use the Force?

    How was he deflecting blaster bolts? How was he even properly using a lightsaber, w/o employing the Force? What about recovering so quickly from the explosions? What about the speed, agility, and leaping about? All from the mechanical legs, eh? :rolleyes:

    He was obviously using the Force, just not Force push, pull, and choke. And I'm not sure what difference those woulda made; might have let him more vulnerable to long range concussive attacks.


    Do folks still think the Force-users are indestructible gods? Ever hear of plot-armor? Or watch the episode where Bane out did both Voss and Kenobi, disarming each and arguably coulda killed either, were it not for the other to bail them out? Nevermind the EU where many BH's have beaten Force users. Heck Durge whipped Anakin and Kenobi on more than one occasion.

    Pretty much every single Force power has a technological equivalent.

    Maul wins this matchup 60-70% tops. Vizsla could easily have won this duel.
  14. Skaddix Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    i liked that better as well. mace one especially higher tier jedi should be a great deal above common threats in head to head. not fighting to draws with every bounty hunter and mando in close range fights

    and grievous, he was actually a terrifying and respectable threat not comic relief
    Last edited by Skaddix, Jan 27, 2013
  15. Merric Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 1
    -Maul didn't use the force to deflect the blaster bolts. He used his lightsaber. It's the lightsaber that reflect bolts. Not the force.
    -Just because Maul is quick and agile, doesn't mean he was using the force. We've already established that that's just the way Maul fights.
    -The reason he recovered so quickly from the explosion is because he didn't even get it with the explosion. He jumps out of the way then continues rolling to dodge the others.

    Therefore nothing is really shown if he even used the force or not. Personally I don't think he was using the force cause if he WAS, he would have just force choked Vizsla at the beginning of the match... If anything Maul probably didn't use it becuase he wan't to fight Vizsla one warrior to another without any cheap tricks. (and no, Vizsla's jetpack, grenades, blasters, etc. don't really count as cheap tricks because it was part of his arsenal.)
    Last edited by Merric, Jan 27, 2013
  16. Jordan1Kenobi Host of EUC Battle of... Games

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    After seeing that duel, I think Vizsla would absolutely destroy Boba.
  17. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    Yes he was using the Force to predict his opponents movements and enhance his own physical prowess, but that's it. He could ofcourse have easily choked him, like he did to Bo Katan in Eminence. But that would have made for a lackluster duel (heck there wouldn't have been a duel in the first place) and Filoni & Co have to give fan service to mando fans. (thus the fight between Jango and Obi Wan in AOTC: Yes Obi was trying to take him alive, but he didn't even Force Push him or Force Disarm him)

    From an in universe POV, just assume Maul wanted to give the Mandos a good show, so that it makes him appear the better warrior and shows how all mando gadgets and technology are inferior to his fighting style.
    Convor and pronker like this.
  18. Zer0 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    Boba would get spanked pretty hard, An older Boba did get taken out by a distracted Han, not in an epic duel, how embarrassing.
  19. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Never mind on that video, someone beat me to it.

    Cool, I have some spare time to play ME3 then.
  20. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 4
    WOW! I mean Woooooooow! What an incredible episode. Easily one of the finest outputs from TCW's crew, and they've made some really memorable episodes over the years.

    Here are some of my thoughts:

    -I don't know why, but this episode felt like it was going on longer than usual, and I mean that in a positive way.

    -The head of the Mandalorian Police Officers reminded me of Robocop because of his uniquely shaped visor. I didn't really like how monotone their reactions were when they were faced with "the beast", though. You'd think they'd be taken over by sheer panic within seconds of seeing a giant horned creature with a twin lightsaber approaching you, even among trained police officers.

    -Wait, how come every Police Officer can identify they're being attacked by the Black Sun/ Pyke syndicate? Because one Pyke said it?

    -So the whole population of Mandalore panics because, from the looks of it, ten people tops, are attacking their city? Even the most pacifist civilisation would get together as an angry mob at one point or another to stop them, irregardless of who their leaders are. That why to me, overthrowing Satine's rule and replacing it with the Deathwatch's didn't really work for me. I don't think they did a good job conveyed there was a whole army reeking havoc on Mandalore, instead of just a group of a couple of people.

    -Mandalore's people are drones. One begins to chant for something and suddenly everyone is onboard. Not to mention, they all utter the same three or four lines, making it sound like echo. I wish they'd rather not spoken audible lines, but simply gone for a more naturally building up applause.

    -The way Maul perched on Satine's throne was so deliciously evil. Reminded me of John Rys-Meyers in the Tudors for some reason.

    -Just to get this straight, Darth Maul let himself get arrested because he saw two steps ahead of Viszla's game, right? Because I wouldn't buy him getting arrested against his will, as he'd manage to overpower them all within seconds.

    -So wait, Satine and Almec are in neighbouring cells and have a conversation in one scene. Yet in the next scene Satine describes Almec's character to the Sith and apparently Almec didn't hear it and basically repeated what she had already said to them.

    -I find it cool to see Almec and his frighteningly purple pupils again. I never thought we'd see him again, let alone dealing with DARTH MAUL and his BROTHER. Star Wars- where unexpected alliances are formed.

    -Darth Maul vs. Pre Viszla [face_hypnotized] :eek: =D=
    The Clone Wars team managed to stage a gripping duel that is easily on par with Duel of the Fates, Battle of the Heroes and the most impressive duels in Genndy Tartakovsky's Clone Wars. Tremendous job!

    -So wait, Darth Maul has a lion roar now, too? Errr... but the Deathwatch flamethrowers already make that sound. So you have a lion roar used twice within seconds on different things. Pretty weird.

    -Maul claiming Viszla's Darksaber. Such a cool moment.


    So all in all, this will be an arc long remembered! =D=
    This manifested my positive attitude towards TCW bringing back Darth Maul. He's been given so many memorable moments in this episode alone, I am glad to see he returned from the dead. Although, ultimately I will have to wait until his death until I can tell whether I am fully happy with his reappearance.
    Last edited by Billy_Dee_Binks, Jan 27, 2013
  21. Nexumaster Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2005
    star 4
    TCW strikes again with another great episode and shows the takeover of Mandalore, a planet which is nice to see again; it was also great to see Duchess Satine again and also Almec who we haven't seen since the corruption debacle in S3, which was nicely referenced. I really liked the intrigue here and how the episode rolled the plot forward without getting boring, like the previous one. I had no problems with the pacing, perhaps especially because this one obviously takes place over a number of days and therefore I can sort of buy that the citizens loses faith in the leadership of Satine and her government and starts turning towards Death Watch, especially after the raids done by Savage and the Pyke and Falleen thugs and considering all the innocent civilians they killed; Death Watch stepping in and 'bringing the bad guys to justice' helped as well. Savage breaking himself and Maul out of the cell by shattering the glass was pretty cool and how he then kept disposing of the Death Watch guards as they walked through the prison and had a little chat with the imprisoned Satine and Almec; Savage crushing that one guard's neck with the force while Maul was talking with Almec stood out. Concerning Maul, the main villain of this story, I think he's getting better and better as a character in TCW and his new robotic legs and outfit helps a lot; he definitely works really well in the show by now and feels like more of a natural addition or so to say.

    There was some great dialogue as well, like between Satine and Almec and again also between Maul and Vizsla. Their big duel was great, just great, and was one of the best on the show. Bo-Katan, still voicing her unease about the alliance between them and the Maul bros., is still a very cool and more or less level headed character and I definitely liked how after Maul won and killed Vizsla (who definitely must've been very close to her, judging by the expression on her face after Maul killed him) wouldn't recognize the Sith as the new leader of Death Watch, despite the Mando tradition, and made an explosive escape with some other traitors, creating a rift in Death Watch and setting up for the events of the next episode; I bet she quietly cursed Vizsla underestimating Maul after she escaped. So Almec is then reinstated as prime minister by Maul, who's now the new leader of the warriors, and he blames Vizsla's death on the imprisoned Satine and promises that Mandalore will be stronger now and announces bringing back the warrior faith of the old days, getting the people's full support. I have no real problems with the people accepting the corrupted Almec back as prime minister. I think some had their doubts, but with the recent calamities in mind and Satine and her government appearing weak and unable to defend the people, the people of Mandalore feel desperate to get a new, stronger government who can protect them so they are willing to overlook the bad attributes of Almec and his cohorts; I think there is something of a truth in reality about this.

    All in all, great episode once again. the plot flowed on quite well, the animation is great, Satine and Almec are back, solid dialogue and some really great moments like Savage breaking himself and Maul out of the cell by shattering the glass with the force and killing a Death Watch guard at the same time & of course Maul vs. Vizsla which has to be the standout scene; Vizsla did very well against a skilled Force user and him accepting his defeat and fate before losing his head by his own blade was a great moment. Bring on the next and final episode of this arc which oughta be quite an experience.
    Last edited by Nexumaster, Jan 27, 2013
  22. AW8 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Wow, this episode was amazing. I concur with Billy Dee Binks above on most everything.

    This episode had me on my seat the whole time and no moments felt like wasted. They really made good use of these 22 minutes. It was really exciting and I continually awaited what would come next.

    They looked like Robocop didn't they? :D
    And I agree, their monotone, almost bored voices sounded a bit silly.

    Yes, and we know that the TCW team are capable of producing large-scale battles (like the latest Obi-Wan vs. Grievous encounter on the Republic Star Destroyer). So why they couldn't convey the whole crime syndicate takeover better than this, I do not now.

    To me it seemed like he wasn't 100% sure that Viszla would arrest him, but didn't mind being arrested as his plan would just continue on from there regardless.

    Kind of silly to put Force-sensitives behind reinforced glass though. I don't think any of the Star Wars stuff where Lucas is involved has gotten the concept of imprisoning Force users right, save the carbon-freezing plan in Empire. You gotta keep them drugged or in some indestructible stasis field, anyone who's seen their abilities upclose would know that.

    Hell yeah. One of the best TCW duels ever, maybe the best. I don't mind the silly darksaber anymore, and while it would make more sense for Maul to use the Force more it didn't bother me.

    I loved how Viszla used every trick in his arsenal to keep going. Blasters, flamethrower, grenades, grappling whip, razor blades... and yet Maul endured and overpowered him. It was pure action, with tensions between Maul and Vizsla that had been up for 1 and a half episode exploding at once.

    The duel reminded me of the one between Ulic Qel-Droma and Mandalore the Indomitable thousands of year before, they even alluded to this old tradition. Unlike Qel-Droma, Maul had no further use for Viszla. The proud warrior accepted his death anyway. A worthy end for Viszla.
  23. CloneWarsRescored Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    This episode was easily a 10/10. The duel was absolutely fantastic. If the duel between Maul & Vizsla in this episode was that brilliant, It gets me very excited to see how the epic duel we've all been waiting for next episode turns out.
  24. Darth Ibonek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2013
    star 2
    Last edited by Paul22Scholes, Jan 27, 2013
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  25. KED12345 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2012
    star 4
    I'm probably alone with this one, which I'm perfectly okay with, but I love these action packed, fast paced episodes. I didn't want to watch Maul's entire negotiation with the Hutts the last episode, or Maul sit down and debate with the Black Sun over the ethics of his planning. I defiantly didn't want to sit around and listen to 4 minute speeches over the neutrality of Mandalore. These episodes are everything I thought they would be, action packed and great. They're also everything they need to be, and the next episode, The Lawless, will be an extraordinary conclusion to the best arc so far in this series for me personally.

    Also, in regards to the fighting styles. I love, and I mean love, the microseries but one thing I like about TCW more is because the fighting is on pair with the movies.

    EDIT -- Oh, and also I've been showing my friends these last two episodes. One of them saw the movie and watched one TCW episode and thought the show was for "babies". Now since they've watched Eminence and Shades of Reason, now he thinks TCW makes the prequels look like garbage.
    Last edited by KED12345, Jan 27, 2013