TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.15 - Shades of Reason - discussion thread

So Ziro wasn't a major character? I thought he was the first major one to go.

I think the fate of Littlefoot's mother in the first The Land Before Time beats that moment in The Lion King (I won't derail this again, just wanted to get that said).

Most people underestimate the powers of the force. You may be the exception. People think that Maul is naturally talented, strong, fast, good, smart, and good at fighting, but many people fail to see that the force is the Mask as seen from the film Mask staring Jim Carey. The force is better than the fairy dust that Tinkerbell sprinkles on Peter Pan. The force makes a person more talented, stronger, faster, better, smarter, and better at fighting.

It is less that the stronger people become force sensitive and more that you do not have to be stronger to become force sensitive and as you train the force helps you get stronger. Maul is naturally a strong person. Without the force, Maul would have still been like a wild beast like Savage. Yoda is small and not as strong but the force makes Yoda stronger. The two Yoda fights, the first against Dooku, and the second duel against Sidious, shows you supernatural Yoda speed and black NBA basketball hops and skills and strength that comes through the force.

Without the force, Yoda would just be an ugly version of the green Kermit the Frog puppet.

I think for a major character to be a major character they are required to have a substantial (i.e. not just be stood in the background) role in 4 or 5 episodes, in which case Ziro doesn't make that list. I consider Ziro a recurring character, not a major one. Vizsla holds 5 major appearances (the first and last of Season 2's Mandalore trilogy, "A Friend in Need" and these two Shadow Conspiracy episodes). It's not a rigid rule, but a general one.

Ziro's death was comical, Vizsla's death is the first one I truly consider to have weight. Sure, some of the Clone deaths have been sad, but I would hardly call any of them major characters. If Rex or Fives dies, that'll change.

Fantastic. Now I remember that too. Remind me never to watch so-called innocent 2D animated films.

Savage is pretty damn strong with the Force. His Force Repulse especially, but he was shown to use Force Choke and Push to a surprising degree.

The Force doesn't necessarily make you strong. The relationship is symbiotic, "Listen to the Force, let it guide your feelings." The Force is as much in control of the user as the user is of the Force. Notice how Order 66 was able to come to pass?

It was the will of the Force. If the Force wants you to defeat your opponent, you do. If the Force wants you to be caught unaware, and shot in the back, you get shot in the back.

The Force can make you strong, but I think we give it a high pedestal, in terms of morality. It can equally decide not to give you that strength.

Oh, and welcome to the boards!

Ziro was major only in stature.

Well said. You more or less covered what I was going to reply with.

just like Darth Vader does.... I think that mechanical arm was not really needed and moving it was only old habit and it helps to concentrate the Force.....

I can not take Savage seriously at all... he more and more looks like a cow-faced freak with a mech-arm that "can" use the Force so it could provide the "Badass seekers" among the fans.

Savage is magical freak created by Talzin still so he won't surprise me anymore.... but I see no major problem in his mechno hand "using" the Force- he seem to use the Force but nothing indicates that he needed that hand movement to do so- it just helps to concentrate if you use your hand like it would be using the Force..... anyway- not sure what was your point. Savage is definitely meant to be badass but he has been mainly Maul's right hand now and Pre Viszla and Maul have been more badass lately.

Probably out of context, but does anyone else hope Maul gets A double blade soon? I hope Savage actually dies at some point, (probably against sidious) and Maul takes his lightsaber. I feel we won't really get to see full potential until he gets it...

I wouldn't mind if he got one or not, I'm more keen to see him use the darksaber. I guess if Savage were to die then Maul would pick up his weapon and use it as his own weapon from that point on.

Savage being "badass" does not equal him being a good character. Him being as bland as he is is one of the main downfalls of the Maul episodes.

Oh Dan you joker

I know, I know...


But the whole situation with Mandalore in this arc drives me crazy since we know what happened in S2 and S3.

Its a show that includes death, decapitations, child murder, torture, terrorism, etc, etc. The network may make a push to a wider audience but the amount of heavy content that it has will never make it a kids show. Ever.

And Theon Greyjoy does not suck.

I don't really care if TCW was moved by CN to a Saturday morning time-slot to appeal to more kids; the show ITSELF is for people of all ages. Its got suicide, political extremism, limbs flying off, etc. CN's marketing schemes won't ever change that. Even if CN were to hypothetically somehow for some stupid reason show A Game of Thrones on their own channel on Saturday mornings, it wouldn't change the fact that its a show for adults.

Anywho, we really need to stop talking about this. Its not on topic.

I'm going to try and steer the thread back on topic.

Dooku should have never existed. I hate that old [Removed -Sx3] now. He was interesting the Nightsisters trilogy, but now with Darth Maul already becoming more successful than he is in such a short time, I wish we didn't have to deal with him and his stupid hologram. Shades of Reason has made me realize how much we need villains like Cad Bane, Darth Maul, Hondo Ohnaka, Mother Talzin, Pong Krell, etc.

Beginning of this episode felt rushed & a bit childish (all the "gangster" references, they should have gone all out and just called them "baddies") but the duel between maul and vizla was sooooooo epic. Maul has a darksaber now! i wonder if he'll strap it onto his other one and have a double light/dark saber!

I wondered whether you were pushing a timeless/ageless appeal argument. To which I will say, Star Wars itself transcends age demographics, and this is true to an extent with the Clone Wars in that it can appeal to all Star Wars fans, but there is definitely an emphasis on the younger end of the market with some of the subject material. Droid and Jar Jar comic relief is something that really doesn't appeal to anything other than kids. There are more mature and complex themes discussed, but they are addressed in such a way that it is accessible to the younger viewer and makes a certain amount of sense. There's a lot of violence, but it's choreographed and portrayed in such a way that it's not too graphic, so it's still age appropriate. Further, there's the whole marketing aspect. TCW merchandise is (AFAIK) solely for kids. It's all toys, costumes and stuff like that. The adverts and promotions are aimed towards younger viewers. This more than anything tells me that TCW is a kids show, because this is the demographic the producers are focusing their marketing on.

The decision for Sidious to have Dooku as his apprentice also seemed a bit off to me when I first saw AotC. There seemed to be an implication that Sidious was dissatified with Maul and his overconfidence/arrogance that got him sliced in half, so Sidious decided to go with someone more experienced and level-headed; and who could give him leverage against the Jedi.

I think it was genius - have a former Jedi as your apprentice and then make that former Jedi start one of the bloodiest wars in history, when you rise you can use the fact that the leader of the enemy was a Jedi to showcase how the Jedi manipulated the war.

It is better than having a mini-mi version of Satan on sugar on your side.

IMO, the Darth Plagueis book also really helped to develop Dooku's character and the relationship between Sidious/Dooku more than the movies did.