TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.15 - Shades of Reason - discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Seerow, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Well, that was interesting. I think the staged attacks in the first act were too obviously staged, as was Death Watch coming to the rescue. I really didn't like how quickly the people warmed to Pre Vizsla, and I wasn't won over by his betrayal of Maul, that scene didn't really work for me.

    However once we got into the second act I think things picked up a bit. I liked the conversation between Satine and Almec, and Maul and Savage's escape, and I very much enjoyed the brief exchange between Maul and Satine, it was very amusing. "He's as corrupt as you." "Really? Thank you for being so co-operative."

    Obviously the stand out bit was the Maul-Vizsla duel. That was a good fight and I liked how Vizsla's use of his entire arsenal of gadgets evened the playing field. But I do think the guys who immediately knelt before Maul were a bit much, there should have been a bit more hesitation before realising they were obliged to serve, as well as a bit of hesitation before Pre Vizsla charged into the duel. Unless Pre predicted this betrayal just as Maul was counting on Vizsla to betray him, and the duel was supposed to be both parties' ways of executing the other and seizing total control.

    I liked seeing Almec again, that slimy bugger. But my god the Mandalorian people are so dense to go along with everything. I thought the people siding with Death Watch at a snap of a finger was bad, but the end with Almec accusing Satine of killing Vizsla was ridiculous. No-one thought to question that? This is a serious accusation and a huge political scandal, in our world there would be countless press and other investigations into this. But they go along with the words of Almec. Really, you believe everything Almec says? This guy was in ****ing jail for corruption until five minutes ago! Why aren't you asking how come Almec is out of jail and somehow is back in charge of Mandalore? **** me these people are the most amenable, thickest populace I've ever seen. Satine must have been having a right old laugh in charge, she could get away with anything if her people are this dumb.

    So, the usual issue that 22 minutes isn't enough to allow for exposition as well as progressing the plot. The pacing was too fast and as such there was no natural flow to it, everything felt like it was on a scripted conveyor belt. This happens, then this happens, then this. Every scene felt set up and rigid. It wasn't like I was watching this story unfurl naturally, and as such I think it fell flat. It's difficult to put into words. It didn't feel believable. I guess it felt like they had some extra plot they needed to finish with so they could get to the big spectacular finale next week, so they decided to rush through it and cram it all into one episode. Definitely the weakest of the arc so far, even though it covers possibly the most crucial plot points.

    At least Randy had some killer moments. Eh. I reckon next week should make up for it now that we've got that plot out of the way.
    Last edited by ImNotAStarWarsFanboy, Jan 26, 2013
  2. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    Nah, Grievous is a weakling who would have lost just like he loses almost every other fight in the series.
  3. KenobiSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    For the time being, I'm going to fanon that he was faking to make the battle look even. Otherwise Maul is a pretty poor fighter...

    Show Spoiler
    ...and Sidious should have no trouble with him and Savage.
    Order66Survivor likes this.
  4. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    This was the best episode of the season and one of the best the show has ever seen, IMHO. It wasn’t perfect: 22 minutes is simply insufficient to properly convey the complexity of this coup and the dialogue was still extremely clumsy at certain points.

    The duel between Vizsla and Maul was definitely among the best in all five seasons: I appreciated that Vizsla’s impressive skill was emphasized while at the same time underlining the fact that he had to rely on blasters, flamethrowers, jetpacks, throwing stars, and wire to hold his own. His submission to Maul was refreshing, I think—too often are the TCW “villains” portrayed as extraordinarily dishonorable, cowardly, and malicious; in the real world, “the bad guys” are often empowered by their convictions and it was great that Vizsla didn’t cry or beg or “cheat” like every other Clone Wars villain ever and instead surrendered to his own code.

    Likewise, I like to think that Maul deliberately restrained himself from using the Force offensively—as if to say, I don’t need to crush you like a tin can to crush you like a tin can.

    Savage has still taken a backseat to Maul, but I’m satisfied that he’s at least been given a task: the muscle, destroying the cell in a Starkiller-esque fashion and throttling the guards.

    8.5/10
  5. KED12345 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2012
    star 4
    Maul couldn't use the force, it's part of Mandalorian tradition for him not too.
    Last edited by KED12345, Jan 26, 2013
  6. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    because fighting an opponent at a disadvantage is totally mando tradition. i'll have to tell Bralor next time i play kotor2
    Malachi108 likes this.
  7. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    But Vizsla can use all his gizmos? Seems a bit unfair.
  8. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    haahaha no, no, no, TCW would make sure to embarrass Grievous again :p
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  9. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Didn't Ulic have a similar handicap?
  10. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    That was definitely the best episode of the season. One of my favorite themes of Star Wars is the fall of one government and the rise of another. As a history buff I could easily identify the writers' influences, from false-flag warfare to Hitler-style speeches. The Maul/Vizsla duel was the best duel of the series, hands-down. Nobody had multiple sabers and nobody had a character shield. Like the duels in the OT, it was two single-bladed warriors in a battle to the death.

    The worst aspect of the episode was how rushed it was. I loved all the plot points but none were thoroughly developed. The only two scenes that really felt complete were the lightsaber duel and Satine's conversation with Almec. (Which was great, by the way. It was intelligent and made the Corruption arc relevant ro the series as a whole.)

    I can't wait for next week!
    Last edited by fistofan1, Jan 26, 2013
  11. godisawesome Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2010
    star 1
    As a history geek, I still like how they went with a kind of parrallell to the rise of fascism to explain Mandalore's fall in the same way they paralelled the rise of the Roman Empire for the Republic. Aside from the sheer speed of the coup, the actual precednt and series of events seemed like a pretty good send up of Hitler's and Mussolini's tactics to gain power, with a slight edge of parody since each bad-guy was treated like the inner circle; all the henchmen knew what was going on, whereas in real life only select squads actually committed false flag operations for the dictators. And I thought there was a subtext of discontent and confusion from the citizens whne Almec spun his story. 20 $ says that most of the crowd knows that it's probably a lie that pacifist-to-a-fault Satine would ever actually murder someone but age-old sympathies with the warrior past probably let's them skip it.

    And I'm real curious how this plot will continue into next season. We now have a fully militarized Mandalore, and unless they get wiped out in the next few episodes, they should be a Clone Wars contained threat right up until the show ends. We'll actually get to see what made the Mandalorians such legendary enemies of the Jedi before the original trilogy. Here's hoping to giant battle-royales between Mandos, Clones, Jedi, Sith, and Droids!
  12. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    WOW. This episode is ******* infuriating. I don't even know where to ******* start with this, so I'm just going to rant and rave like a lunatic.

    I ******* hate when they mention "2000 neutral systems", it comes off as a transparent attempt to big it up.

    Cool, Gozanti freighters.

    The guards are just ******* helpless immediately. They're total ******* garbage. It was pathetic. Embarrassing. Ah, "gangsters"! DO SOMETHING YOU PIECES OF ****!

    They didn't do anything. They didn't try to do anything. The defenders of Mandalore put up no defense.

    To let a couple of thugs run over the entire planet is just embarrassing, really it's shameful. It was bad and they should feel bad. I FEEL BAD for them, and for me for watching it.

    "Black Sun is attacking the vaults, send reinforcements." IS THAT GUY A ******* ROBOT?

    Satine just ******* stands there. She does absolutely nothing this episode, except aid Maul and Savage like a ******* idiot. Character ******* ruined. How this total waste of space ever became Duchess (duh, birth?) is ******* beyond me. She now has zero credibility for anything, she's not even fit to wash dishes!

    Pre challenges Satine literally in five minutes. FIVE MINUTES! I can't ******* believe this ****.

    Satine and Mandalore is so pathetically, disgustingly weak I can't stomach it. Satine just stands there the entire episode with a sad face. YOU ARE WORTHLESS. YOUR GUARDS ARE WORTHLESS. If this is all it takes to take over the whole ******* planet, why hasn't it been done already?

    This episode is just so disgustingly simple/juvenile/crude/stupid I just can't believe it. I can't believe they actually topped the idiocy of Corruption.

    Speaking of Corruption, that word popped up a couple times. Do these people have a vocabulary outside of buzzwords? Corrupt! Corruption! Gangsters! Monster x 1000. It's just nothing but buzzwords, it's some of the worst ******* dialogue in Star Wars history, way worse than anything in the movies. Worse than sand.

    "We're Death Watch, we're here to rescue you". REALLY? REALLY? DID YOU JUST ******* SAY THAT?

    Then they literally rescue little kids, followed by EVERYONE in the area screaming "They saved us! They're our saviors!" a hundred times.

    LITTLE KIDS. THE CHILDREN, SOMEONE SAVE THE CHILDREN! THEY SAVED US! THEY'RE OUR SAVIORS!" A little on the ******* nose, don't ya think!?

    Everything seemingly happens in a day. Maybe it didn't, but that's what it seemed like. It seems like the entire planet of Mandalore fell in a ******* day. Satine is ousted less than halfway through the episode. Everyone, Satine, Mandalore, TCW, us, everyone should all be totally embarrassed and totally ashamed. The writers did a horrible job, the producers did a horrible job, the director did a horrible job, Filoni did a horrible job, Lucas did a horrible job, EVERYONE involved with this did a horrible job. Everyone should go kill themselves for doing this.

    The effects added to the speeches to the crowd was terrible, the echo just made it hard to hear what they were saying. Stop that ****. Don't do that **** again.

    The convo between Satine and Almec in jail was just ******* horrible.

    Alright, that miserable garbage out of the way, the duel between Maul and Pre was ******* awesome, one of the best in the series. Maul challenging Pre to become MANDALORE is a great rip from the EU. Pre put up a great fight, and tried everything he should have tried, basically everything Jango/Boba would have tried. I could ask why Maul didn't just pwn him with the Force, but it doesn't matter, I was entertained, despite fuming up to that point. I was enraged, and it took like two full minutes of awesome to get me to calm down and appreciate the duel.

    I really can't believe the first half of this episode. It was so ******* horrible. I often say that the show should just keep it simple, get everything out of the way ASAP and stick to the action, but this was just intolerable. If you're going to be that stupid, if this garbage is what you're going to show, I'd rather you didn't show it AT ALL. It's a ******* insult. Really, I would have preferred if they just showed the entire collapse of the New Mandalorians in the narration, it would be preferable to this stinking pile of horse ****. If you're going to just glance over it like that, just literally glance over it and move on to the duel between Maul and Pre and keep going.

    I'm really going to have to fight hard not to give this a 1, because everything in this episode besides the duel is ******* awful and DESERVES ZERO POINTS.

    *** damn it. Jesus Christ. Son of a *****.

    EDIT: I'm glad they saved Bo-Katan, and I felt her reaction was believable.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jan 26, 2013
  13. Zabrak 2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    Enough with this god dang censoring come on filoni!
  14. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    One question: If Vizsla is so honorable and would rather die than have someone else fight his battles for him, why did he send his henchmen after Obi-Wan and Ahsoka after they defeated him earlier in the series? That aspect of this episode felt pretty tacked-on.
    Last edited by fistofan1, Jan 26, 2013
  15. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    uhhh, i don't Filoni censors it, it's probably CN and Teletoon that censors it
    Last edited by Darth Vader, Jan 26, 2013
  16. Zabrak 2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    Well curse them.
    and theres only beheading when death watch is around.
    Last edited by Zabrak 2, Jan 26, 2013
  17. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    I was not enraged like CT but I was severely disappointed with this, especially after Eminence last week.
    Order66Survivor likes this.
  18. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    i know pretty weird
  19. cwustudent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2011
    star 4
    I don't like to see Maul smile. That freaked me out. *shivers*
  20. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    that's the point :p
    rumsmuggler likes this.
  21. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Keep in mind that despite how much everyone kept shouting on and on about "Mandalore!", what the Death Watch and Maul really captured, what the episode really centered on...was Sundari. Not Mandalore, but a single city out in the desert wastes. And they took a city of pacifists, the capital of the New Mandalorian peace-lovers. There are approximately ~4 million traditional warrior clan Mandalorians that don't particularly care for the New Mandalorians who shunned them, or their capital, but would more than readily rise against Death Watch and the Sith brothers if they moved against them.
  22. quigonobi3 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2012
    star 1
  23. Dathomir-Witch Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2013
    star 2
    Because of TCW logic - the answer to everything.:p
  24. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Nope
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    You need a massage, CT.

    I'll do a full commentary later, but I really don't like pacifists being portrayed as idiots who won't even defend themselves when threatened. Not all pacifists are "turn the other cheek" types.
    Order66Survivor likes this.
  26. quigonobi3 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2012
    star 1
    thanks we will probably see him next week BTW is this a 3 or 4 part arc ?