TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.16 - Lawless - discussion thread

It wasn't a bad episode on it's own I guess (certainly not brilliant though) but it had no real relevance to the arc.

Fixed

I'm really surprised. It seems so sudden.

What? Was that the end of the arc?

After those previous 2 fantastic and epic episodes I'm really disappointed - you can't show that many things in 20 minutes! And they needed 2 months to tell a story of a stupid annoying frog?

I felt nothing while watching this episode. So many important characters are dying... but it's too fast. Too rushed. And lightsaber duel was worst than Maul vs Vizsla. Why? I'm really sad now cuz I waited whole week for something really good and I got only this... meh.

This was damn epic.
Sidious is perfect in this episode. This is definetly one of my favorites. Maul's uncertain fate and survival could result in interesting things in the future.
Too bad Savage died, but yeah he had it coming.

And I'm glad they didn't chicken out and have the good guys save the day.
I felt sorry for Obi-Wan, but have to admit no regrets over Satine's death. She was so perfectly un-Mandalorian and naively pacifistic that it was annoying me to no end.

Excellent episode, keep 'em coming!

It's limited as to how Sidious would want to use Maul. Especially since Dooku becoming aware of Maul being alive would be an act of betrayal that would alienate Dooku and jeopardize Palpatine's plans.

He could keep Maul as his Venamis. ROTS mentions that only one could cheat death. The films puts forth the idea that this is Plagueis, and Darth Plagueis indicates that Plagueis had success in resurrecting Venamis in a controlled setting, but that he could not use that power to keep himself alive. Maul kept himself alive, but it's vague as to whether surviving a bisection constitutes "cheating death." If Maul cheats death and only one has done so, then it must be Maul (retcon) that Sidious is referring to (or Talzin, if she had some indirect influence). However, Sidious doesn't really give any kind of indication that he's at all impressed with Maul. He gives one casual mention of being surprised that Maul survived, but otherwise completely disregards Maul (which felt kind of odd, since he faired better than three Jedi Council members).

The only other use I could see Sidious having for Maul is in using him against Talzin. I figure Maul will have to figure into Talzin's story, but in what capacity, I don't know.

I agree that Maul won't be given any real power. Both because Maul has proven defiant and because I don't think Sidious could allow Dooku to find out.

I think you hit the nail on the head. That's the only way I can see Talzin coming back into the story (which she will). However, by keeping Maul alive and using him for other plans, to me it seems that Sidious is breaking the there-can-only-be-two rule. I can't organize all of my thoughts on this into something coherent so I'll just leave it at that and say I'm very much looking forward to Season 6

I remember watching the prequels and falling in love with Anakin, Obi Wan and Padme. It was great! But the cool thing about it is I started getting into Star Wars threw The Clone Wars! I watched the Movies before, but only parts of them. Luckily I started watching The Clone Wars and realized how awesome Star Wars really is. You get to see all the back ground characters that were in the prequels, pretty much the Yak Face and Greedo equivalent to what some of you old guys had when the OT first came out! Which is a good thing and a bad thing.

I remember watching Episode 3 the whole way threw for the first time. Thanks to only a few episodes of The Clone Wars, I was pretty much crying the whole time! And now that we are in the fifth season, it’s worse! When Palps starts talking about his “New Galactic Empire” I’m pretty much trying to use the force to throw the TV across the room, And when he’s fighting Yoda, while it’s awesome, it saddens my heart. I hardly every cheer for the bad guys, but this time, was that one exception.

When we first saw Palps in the Sideous robes, I knew things got serious. It was great seeing him interact with Maul once again. Their battle was probably even better that the Duel between Obi and Maul! I was cheering for both sides. But I must say, I was more for Sideous on this one. I was surprised how powerful how they made Savage too, he actually held his ground against Sideous for a while, but we all know how that turned out! I was very surprised to see how emotionally attached Maul was to Savage also, it seemed as if he had a sense of sadness, which really show that he was more to maul than an apprentice, but he was a brother.

It was also refreshing to see a good guy again! Especially Obi Wan. His interaction with Satine was great, and Satine’s death made me feel sorry for Obi Wan. I think it’s obvious that Obi Wan is really smart when it comes to guessing who’s related to who, Bo Katan being related to Satine will really make me pay attention to her character from now on, (not that I wasn’t already.) Also, was that a ROTS nod? It reminded me of when Obi asked Padme if Anakin was the Father. I’m probably jumping the gun(or blaster), but did anyone pick that up?

I’m sorry this is going on so long, but there is so much to say, and so much that hasn’t been said. For instance, I expected Maul to die, but apparently Palpatine has another use for him! You know, I was never really that interested in Maul before The Clone Wars. I always thought he was cool. But the Clone Wars expanded his character into something even cooler!

OK, to sum it up, Awesome Story, Awesome Actions, Awesome Battles. Awesome Everything!
It easily gets a 10/10 destroyed Twilights, and that a understatement.

Given his shameful display at the end, I hope Sidious only has the most minor of plans for Maul, like sniffing out Talzin and putting her down.

Well he was raised by Sidious and was tortured many many times by him through his training, so he really fears his master.

Fear makes him weak. He should be filled with hate for his master, which gives him strength, not fear. Plus, way too much sentimentality and attachment for his brother. If he wasn't already, he's now a failed Sith. He's pathetic.

Yes, from his love of his brother and beg for mercy, no wonder Sidious gave up on him as apprentice.

No I definitely caught that too. Of course, it has completely different meaning in the two instances.

But yeah, this was a great episode for Obi-Wan. When Satine was killed I didn't so much feel bad for her as I felt bad for Obi-Wan. They said this season we'd have a better understanding of his reasons for living isolated on Tatooine, and that was certainly the case.

Other thoughts- Did they say what happened to Almec? Or is he still leader? Considering the fact that Sundari is at war with itself, it probably matters little. Also, the **** was up with the Hutts and Black Sun? Where the hell were they in all this? Did Vizsla's death drive them away from the Horny Bros. influence? Hopefully next time we see them it'll be addressed.

Funnily enough I actually liked Korkie when he showed up. I've expunged those awful earlier-season episodes from my memory, so I don't remember what he was like before. But I liked his youthful idealism and confidence this time around.

And of course, the duel. (or asskicking was more like) Great atmosphere and choreography. The late Ian Abercrombie certainly delivered, as he always did. I thought it was interesting that Savage reverted to his original form upon his demise. It's almost as if he's finally free from everyone's control. Adds a bit of tragedy to his character. Was he underutilized during his run? Yeah, I think so, especially when Maul returned. Still, it'll be very interesting to see what Maul's future will be like.

I agree with endor dude, this episode was great. I loved how they were showing maul as a strategist and tactician taking over mandalor a single planet but then they show palps scheming to take over a galaxy. Sidious is on anther level as a villain. I have been watching these boards and this site before episode 1, first time posting as the excitement for Star Wars is going to be crazy and The coming years with episode 7 and clone wars season 6, a great time to be a starwars fan! Take it from a guy who has seen revenge of the Jedi...I mean return of the Jedi in theaters, this episode was as cool as fett in ESB!

You've been lurking for nearly 15 years? Wow. That is commitment bro.

Going by how Korkie's parents aren't mentioned in The Academy and by how Satine is his first port of call for discussing things with an authority figure, I did have a wild guess that Satine had an estranged sibling whose son she took into her care. I just didn't think it would be Bo-Katan, and I highly doubt that Korkie is hers. Actually, Bo-Katan being Korkie's mother would explain his slightly ginger hair, but I fully expect this notion to be blown out of the water by Korkie addressing her as "Auntie" in the inevitable Republic Invades Mandalore arc. Obi-Wan seems surprised that Satine has any sister at all, so either Korkie is the son of Satine's brother or maybe there really is more to the ginger link.

Speaking of Korkie, there isn't any indication that he gets up from being knocked down by the horned Mauldalorian leader. Almec is later heard saying that all of Satine's accomplices managed to escape. There's no mention of Korkie, but it's easy to read his escape into those words. It would have been nice to see some evidence that Korkie manages to avoid getting a plasma round to the brain, since that should have been considered worthy of mention by Satine. Perhaps they could have shown Bo-Katan swooping down to save her presumed nephew from a grisly demise, failing to overcome overwhelming numbers in her attempt to rescue Satine from the Mauldalorians. The appearance of Amis, Soniee and Lagos was appreciated - and much-needed - fleshing out of the rebel Mandalorians, but I expect to see this handled better in any future Mandalorian arc.

This particular sudden revelation of family ties is nowhere near as bad as Princess Leia abruptly being rewritten as Luke Skywalker's sister. That was a colossal cop-out, IMO. The sibling relationship between Satine and Bo-Katan actually gives more significance to Satine's story in this arc than just her getting beaten up - politically, emotionally and physically - by Maul and Vizsla. Overall, I found Satine's end to be one of TCW's best death scenes. Obi-Wan's ultimate archnemesis getting involved made this all the more significant a fate for her. It combined everything in her character arc up to now - her doomed dream for a peaceful Mandalore, her frantic attempts to preserve this dream - with the equivalent for Obi-Wan. As has been said before, Obi-Wan's reaction to her death was a good contrast to how Anakin would react.

The other significant death - that of Savage - was handled reasonably well. There's finally an acknowledgement that he has never been Sith material, complete with a reversion to the honourable Savage of Monster in both body and mind. On his deathbed, Savage shows the side I've been waiting to see again for two years. His confrontation with Sidious at the side of a dark master is the culmination of everything his character arc thus far and, like Satine's, was a fitting demise. I prefer the Savage of S3 by a country mile, but hey, this was the closest TCW has come to acknowledging that Savage at one point had a chance to be more than an exploited minion of every nefarious Force-sensitive. It's a shame he had to go out like this, although this might be the effect of a well-written tragedy. Or perhaps... Savage still lives. He may be close to the point of death, such that Sidious writes him off as a total loss, while there's enough life (or green mist) left in him for Talzin to bring him back. There's slightly larger of a window for his return than there is for Vizsla's, for example.

I like how this episode gave some significance to the S3 duology with the appearances of the cadets, all of whom I expect to see fighting in this new Mandalorian Civil War in the hinted at future clone invasion arc. If Sidious' neutering of Maul involves the Zabrak being dragged off the planet, I'm sure Almec and/or his horned Mauldalorian accomplice are jumping at the chance to turn Mandalore into a militarised regional power. Between the glimpses of and references to Concordia and Kalevala in the previous episodes, it's clear there's much more to Mandalorian space than just this one city, which provides an explanation for how the relatively small Death Watch was able to diverge into the large armies of Mauldalorians and Mando rebels. In the previous episode, it's made clear that the regular old police forces have a certain affinity for the traditional warriors, which explains why all of a sudden there are fully armoured Mauldalorians manning the port security and the prisons. Regular police - probably including ones from Concordia and/or Kalevala - are donning the old-school armour and joining the two warring factions. It's evident that even with Satine and Vizsla both dead, they've both left behind legacies that will lead to a fascinating confrontation.

More than most TCW episodes and arcs, this one felt the closest in structure to a SW film. It ended with an epic battle between armies and a duel between lightsabre-wielders. This was as close as TCW has come to replicating that feel. It definitely called to mind ANH in some parts, but also TESB and ROTS. The pacing was great, not particularly rushed, ensuring that there never was a dull moment. After the disappointment of Secret Weapons and the shadow it cast even over the good D-Squad episodes, this arc was a welcome reprieve.

All in all, a solid conclusion to a solid arc. 10/10 without a doubt. It's not flawless () but no TCW episode is. I've never seen a 100% perfect film or TV episode. This was as good as it gets from TCW. It combined classic SW feel with heavy drama and layers of development built up over five seasons.

@ImNotAStarWarsFanboy, how many more times are you going to be changing your avatar?

I'm done. This is still my favourite.

Okay, just curious.

Anyways, I was pretty surprised how the cadets have changed. Amis is bald now, Korkie is now a blonde, and the girls I hardly recognize. Reminds me of the Rugwrats.

I don't get Maul's begging. Sith are supposed to be consumed with anger and hatred, not fear. Come on, you baby, at least face your death with dignity, like your brother! But you kept yourself alive for over 10 years with raw hatred and Dark Side mojo. If Sidious cuts your arms off, kick him! If he cuts your legs off, bite him! If he shatters your jaw, use those horns! But don't beg. Honestly, I see why Sidious replaced you. At least Dooku didn't whimper - and he just had his friggin hands cut off!

So who commands the Mandalorians next season? Maul? Dooku? Bo-Katan? Almec? Spar?

Korkie.