Full Series The Clone Wars - 5.16 - Lawless - discussion thread

Maul fears his master more than anyone, if he could prove he's stronger than Anakin and Dooku, then Sidious will just let him kill them both, then it's still the Rule of Two, no more, no less.

The worst thing could happen to Sidious, at this moment, is to have his identity exposed to either side, so go by himself is big NO NO unless he got no other cards to play.

I will post the description of how Maul thinks of his master, that's totally different than Dooku and Vader's view of Sidious.

Spoiler

Mau felt himself leap from the throne, mechanical legs clacking down the steps and toward his old Master. The motion was almost automatic, involuntary. Maul's earliest memories were of that hooded figure-his tests, his teachings, and also his torments. He had been Maul's father, his protector, his torturer.

He had been everything.

They are Jedi, they were not taught to control their fear, anger or hate, but only avoid them, so it could bring them pros and cons when it grows strong in them.

But Sith are trained to use these as weapon, they know how to control and direct them, so it makes them more powerful.

 

The thing is, Maul returning from the dead is probably the thing that Sidious least expected to happen. I'll bet it was as out of the blue to him as it was to all of us.

At this point I don't think Sidious would think it wise to incorporate Maul into some larger plan to test or corrupt Dooku or Anakin--Sidious just wants Maul to go away and stop throwing a spanner in the works. Better to take care of it himself and make sure it gets done fast, clean, and right. Then he can get back to taking over the galaxy the way he planned to.

Sidious may be the master of the Plan B, but I think this kind of thing goes a fair bit beyond that. He could probably pull it off, but Sidious didn't get to where he was by being cocky.

Maul is basically the only person in the galaxy who both knows all of Sidious's secrets and yet is not completely loyal to him. Maul is the number one threat to Sidious's plans and identity. So since Maul is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off and ruin his life's work, why wouldn't Sidious take the minimal risk of going to Mandalore and dealing with things himself?

Sidious is a Sith Lord who routinely switches between guises in the very heart of the galactic capital like it's no big deal, and has done so for years. You think he's in serious danger of exposing himself somehow by traveling to Mandalore and taking out Maul? What's going to happen, is his cloak going to fall down around his ankles mid-duel and his face caught on Mandalorian CCTV and simulcast on every HoloNet station the galaxy over?

 

Satine looks like Medusa!

 

Why? Maul greatly fears him, his forces are not really loyal to him, especially the crime lords, and Sidious got a lot of cards to play from both sides. He has no need to clear Maul too quickly, at least not worth to risk himself, the risk is not about killing Maul but expose himself to either side, especially the Jedi.

Actually Maul is a perfect tool to test Anakin.

 

All of these are great big X-factors which Sidious never planned for in a million years. He already has a plan, a really good plan which as we all know obviously worked. He doesn't need to start playing juggle-a-Sith-Lord at this point, especially given that, whether you'll admit it or not, a rogue Sith Lord, even if he still fears his master, is a very dangerous thing if you're not completely in control of him.

He was doing fine before Maul came along, now he's doing potentially less fine because all kinds of unplanned alliances and betrayals and schemes for galactic conquest are flying through the air. Taking out Maul is less risky than trying to re-arrange all his carefully laid plans to accommodate a loose-cannon mini-version of himself who popped up five minutes ago.

The point you seem to be missing is that there's nothing Maul can contribute to the Grand Plan that Sidious doesn't already have at this point. Trying to include Maul in everything that's happened in the ten years since he "died" is simply not worth the risks it would involve taking.

 

Hurry up Friday

 

Quite a few of them are Plagueis' plan and Sidious already started to change it since he killed his master, actually Maul's death 10 years ago, was not what he and Plagueis had expected. Their plan was to kill the 2 jedi and force Padme sign the treaty. Even Anakin greatly surprised the two, but Sidious came up with a better plan right after Qui Gon's death.

Sidious is no fool, it's not like he never prepared for other situation, Maul's death, Anakin showed up, Vader's injury, and of course Luke are all not what he had expected, but he came up with a plan quickly and mostly did well. If he couldn't even manipulate Maul, who he raised and greatly afraid of him, he's not Sidious.

I know TCW did a bad job on him, having him showing sinister smile whenever he could rather than carefully hide himself, but do not forget he's one of the best manipulators in the galaxy's history. He does not need to risk himself to solve the problem of someone like Maul.

 

Sidious must go himself. Though Maul may think otherwise, he's presented himself as a legitimate threat in Sidious' eyes, and while he may bow before Sidious, Maul continues to proclaim himself a true Lord of the Sith. He's presented himself as a rival, a competitor for the mantle of Dark Lord. Like I said, Sidious must respond. It's the code of the Sith.

 

Dooku and Vader are both Sidious' threats, both of them planned to overthrow Sidious, did you see Sidious kill them by himself? No.

Also Maul is a true Dark Lord of the Sith when he achieved the title Darth.

The real threat to himself and the Sith is having his identity exposed, which could ruin all the plans. Showing his strength of the Dark Side to fight Maul brother will surely let the Jedi sense him.

 

I'm not buying that Sidious has to take care of this personally.

The mantle of the Dark Lord means nothing to Sidious, he's way beyond that. He doesn't give a **** about the Code of the Sith.

What makes it harder to swallow is that imo Dooku could/should spank Maul with ease.

 

after this episode, im pretty sure that Dooku´s theory about being a sith apprentice with Savage Opress on his side is enought to defeat Sidious will be crushed.

 

He does care of the Sith Code, but not like he would risk himself for that when he got other choices.

 

Seemed to help Luke against Vader, though. But it also lost Anakin his arm and nearly got Obi-Wan killed by Maul.

Maybe, but he's also a wild card Sidious didn't expect. He's an outside factor that was completely unanticipated. Plus, he knows more about Sidious than nearly any other being in the galaxy. Can you imagine what damage that could be done to Sidious if Maul were to be captured by the Jedi, which they've been trying to do?

 

Anakin was also a wild card and caused both Plagueis and Sidious to go panic when they heard the boy, but Sidious quickly made a plan after killed his master.

Maul does not know much of Sidious, at least not know he is Palpatine. He could just used Anakin to kill Maul, just like he used Anakin to kill Dooku, Dooku knew his true identity well but he was not afraid.

Again, he's Sidious. I think people really overestimated Maul through these episodes, but in truth Maul never changed much before his master.

 

Dooku and Vader never legitimately moved against Sidious. Dooku believed he would sit at the right hand of the Emperor right up until his death. He never had plans with Asajj, despite what Sidious may have thought, and he never had plans with Savage, despite the lines he fed him. And while Vader may have considered rebellion while he was whole, once he became a cyborg, his self-awareness of his own weakness kept Vader from acting until he no longer cared about his own safety once Luke's life was threatened.

Now Maul...Maul's raised an army. He's established a powerbase on one of the galaxy's most notoriously powerful and dangerous worlds. He's acquired an apprentice of his own, and his actions threaten the plan that Sidious has laid for more than a decade. That is a threat. And while Maul may have earned his Sith Lord status, upon his supposed death, he was replaced. He no longer "fits" in the Banite order under the Rule of Two, and his very existence is now a challenge to Sidious. The prudence of removing such an obstacle aside, the Sith tenets demand that Sidious—the anointed Dark Lord of the Sith—respond to the challenge in kind.

Also, you have to remember that the Force is not perfect. Even assuming that Sidious ceases to mask his presence, it doesn't strain reason to assume that in the sheer chaos that has overtaken Sundari—a city burning, tearing itself apart—the dark aura of Sidious is simply drowned out.

The mantle of Dark Lord means everything to Sidious. While he has no plans to ever be truly succeeded, he equally has no plans to ever allow anyone to ever wrest that position from him.

 

And Vader was planning to use Luke to against Sidious.

Maul's army is a joke, those crime lords have no true loyalty to him, nor would they fight to the death for him against 2 of the most powerful forces in the galaxy. The majority of the Mandalorians didn't even know he was behind Alemc otherwise they would not serve. Only part of the Death Watch is loyal to him and it's simply because his personal strength, which could be overpowered by Anakin and Dooku. His forces could be very easily dismissed, actually he rose to power only because Viszla is a big idiot. Since the preview is out you can see how afraid he is before his master.

As for Rule of Two, just send Dooku, his current apprentice, or Anakin, his future one to fight Maul and test them, only the strong one should live, that's what Sidious is doing all along.

Yoda was able to sense Maul right after his return, why would he not be able to sense such great darkness in a fight between 3 Sith?

 

Does Maul really know little enough that Sidious would risk him being capture by the Jedi (I assume you're basing Maul's knowledge of Sidious' identity on Wrath of Darth Maul)? Still seems like a loose end Sidious might want to tie up, particularly seeing as Sidious seems to always have a plan for every loose end ever.

And Mia makes a good point about the fact that Maul is actively moving against Sidious. Anakin was a potential threat as a child, but Maul is actually establishing himself and building his power up. That's something that needs to be addressed and so Sidious does.

 

The way I see it is Maul is parading around calling himself the true Sith lord. Sidious is the true Sith lord. His plans count of that respect from the few who do know. So, he isn't going to send Dooku who is his apprentice to answer that challenge. Not to mention Dooku showing up on Mandalore.... Its the same reason he certainly wouldn't want Grievous sent to deal with this. Grievous showing up would be like when Jim Cantore shows up in your town. Sidious doesn't need to use Maul to test Anakin, he already just tested Anakin with Dooku. Remember the whole fake kidnapping plot in "Crisis on Naboo'? Sids knows how well Anakin is baking.

 

Dooku does not have to show up before everyone, just sneak in and challenge Maul like Sidious did. At least before TCW retcon it again, the Mandalorians did join the CIS later and were betrayed by Sidious.

Actually neither Dooku nor Anakin is worse than Sidious if the Mandalorians discover him because he could expose his identity, which would be GAME OVER to both him and the Banite Sith at this point.

More challenge will be better, if Anakin could not even defeat his old apprentice, who killed one of the most respected men of Anakin, then he has no place among the Sith, that's Sith' logic.

Other EU as well, Quite little, especially compare to Dooku. Sidious let Anakin fight and kill Dooku without a problem. Why would he worry about Maul? Anakin has the perfect reason to kill Maul right?

Like both Dooku and Vader, Sidious didn't kill them by himself even though they were planning against him.

 

To each his own. It could have been handled better, but I maintain that it's cool to see Sidious get his hands dirty every now and then, if only to remind everyone (in-universe and out) that he's the biggest of the Sith badasses.

 

I'm perfectly aware Dooku said that. But we don't always mean what we say, do we? And the chronologically later Revenge of the Sith novel reveals an insight to Dooku's thoughts, wherein he notes his true beliefs in the rise of Palpatine, the birth of the Empire and the New Order, and his place in it. Dooku had no plans to turn on Sidious.

He has an untold number of Black Sun soldiers at his command, highly trained and armed with the best weapons and armor the syndicate can buy. He has who-knows-how-many of the Hutt kajidics' ships, slave-soldiers, and mercenaries at his disposal. And he has an army of Mandalorian soldiers, the efficiency of even a fraction of whom Eminence displays rather clearly. Regardless of how you feel about the entire "Shadow Collective", the rational mind does not shrug that off as completely inconsequential. It won't be washing over the GAR or anything anytime soon, but that's a force that needs to be recognized for the potentially serious threat it is.

It's not as simple as that, though. Anakin vs Dooku was a test between potential apprentices, to see which was better equipped to serve. But the confrontation with Maul comes about because Maul isn't looking to replace Dooku, he's declared himself a Sith master. He's placed himself as a rival to Sidious himself.

 

Well it may be fun to watch, but it's quite against his character and style, having him manipulate 3 sides, use Dooku and Anakin to deal with Maul could be a much better plot.

 

Why would he say it to Savage (who, at that point, didn't know who Sidious was) if he didn't mean it? It's pretty evident that the eternally-loyal!Dooku has been replaced in canon by a characteristically treacherous Sith!Dooku.