Full Series The Clone Wars - 5.16 - Lawless - discussion thread

Thanks much, but I have read that and it appears Satine may have gained power in 44 BBY, or when Obi-Wan was 13 (born 57 BBY).

I'm trying to figure out roughly when the "year on the run" with Satine, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan happened (or to put it another way, Satine's and Obi-Wan's ages).

Unless that is the 20 BBY "fragmentation" spoken of?

Eh, now they've edited her bio to show death year 22 BBY.

All this info but nothing on what I'm looking for.

 

I really hope we get to a point where the pre-PT back-story of Mandalorians being a group of evil warriors who fought the Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars jives with this series, I was hoping that would happen with this arc but it really didn't.

 

Yeah, the ages don't really add up there. It really doesn't make sense for Obi-Wan to be 13, not the way that Obi-Wan and Satine describe it in TCW. Guess the continuity isn't fixed, yet.

Satine's death occurs in 20 BBY by the way, not 22 BBY.

 

Oh, did I misread that or was the Wook wrong? Anyway, I'm trying to get an approx age thing for a potential fanfic - at least for background. Interesting that the Wook says Obi-Wan had an affair with her AFTER he was knighted.

 

Respectfully, there's only one Mandalorian backstory. Satine, the New Mandalorians, the events of the series...all have been fully integrated with the story of the comics, novels, and guides.

As for your question, Quango's got it. Satine came to power following the Great Clan Wars, wherein the Death Watch launched an attack on the New Mandalorians around 10 years prior to The Phantom Menace. Her father actually wasn't a New Mandalorian leader, but a member of the warrior clans and the chieftain of Clan Kryze. During the war, Chieftain Kryze sent Satine away to Coruscant to keep her safe and give her an education under Republic teachers. Sadly, he died during the war, solidifying her anti-violence views and pushing her into the arms of the New Mandalorians, where her passionate beliefs and such allowed her to rise through the ranks and eventually become their leader by the time of the Clone Wars.

The 20 BBY "fragmentation" is the downfall of the New Mandalorian government depicted in these last couple episodes, and per that, her death is in 20 BBY. The 22 BBY date was a rough estimate based off of early dating for the first season or so's worth of episodes, and is incorrect in this instance.

Considering the decision by the writers of the official site's "Encyclopedia" to name the Maul loyalist Mandalorians "Mandalorian super commandos", and the show's portrayal of them willingly serving a Sith Lord, I'd assume that's the direction the Maul loyalist troops are/were headed.

 

It's been changed back to 20 BBY, if it was indeed 22 BBY that was incorrect.

Yeah, the romance section of Obi-Wan's page seems to imply there were two visits to Mandalore - one as a padawan during the Mandalorian Civil War and then one after Obi-Wan was knighted. I have no idea where that's come from, and it's sourced "Voyage of Temptation".

 

Interesting that the Great Clan Wars seem to be taking place at least concurrently with the fall of the True Mandalorians. Death Watch sure was busy during that time frame. A civil war with the True Mandalorians, and fighting the Pacifist government at the same time.

 

Yeah to the above - blech. I'm trying to integrate some of this into my own personal canon but first I'm trying to figure out what is close-to-canon canon. I'm not 100% behind this Cerasi-Siri-Taria-Satine (or is it Cerasi-Siri-Satine-Taria, or Cerasis-Siri-Satine-Taria-Satine)...but I'd like at least to know the new-as-of-now canon.

And I don't see that "year on the run" and Obi-Wan falling desperately in love with Satine and willing to leave the Order (per the Wook) happening at age 15 - just 2 years after leaving the Order over Melida/Daan.

 

The dating was rough, but one after the other seemed to be more the implication. When Death Watch formed, the True Mandalorians rose to confront them and the Mandalorian Civil War ensued. Death Watch manipulates the downfall of the True Mandalorians, and without the Trues to oppose them, they move on to the pacifist New Mandalorians in the Great Clan Wars.

 

For my own personal canon, I've thrown out Cersai and Siri now. I don't think it makes sense to have them and Satine all happen in Obi-Wan's early life. The way TCW presents it, Satine was Obi-Wan's love interest, the only one he was willing to actually leave the Jedi for, and the only person who made Obi-Wan directly defy the Jedi Code.

 

Siri can be worked the same way Barriss Offee works with Anakin. A close friend but in a platonic relationship only. I never got much of Obi-Wan's passion with Siri, the only real time was when she died, which would be hard for anyone losing a friend to begin with.

 

I guess I just don't view that as something I expect Obi-Wan to do, and definitely not if he was committed to Satine in such a way. After leaving Satine, I get the feeling Obi-Wan would have really suppressed those emotions, only for them to resurface upon meeting Satine again in the Clone Wars.

Only for them to die again.

Anakin's a totally different story, of course.

 

Sure, Siri can be seen that way quite plausibly and they "fell in love" in their teens so it's easy to see it that way, as a youthful passion. But personality wise, and both being Jedi, it "fits" more than Satine does in a way (that is if you've read some fanfic that fills in Siri more than JA books ever did) - you could look at it (Siri) as a very deep and abiding "friend" love if one was so inclined. Taria (blech) was never really a romance, just a friend with benefits.

 

That's intriguing. So, assuming Satine has the same upbringing as other children raised in the Mandalorian warrior clans, she's already well into her warrior training before being sent away to Coruscant. Obviously, twenty years of pacifism have caused her skills to get a bit rusty. However, beyond just her pacifism and xenophilia, this upbringing might show where her fatal flaws of fanaticism and dogmatism come from.

The Battle of Galidraan takes place in 44 BBY. Tor Vizsla is killed in 42 BBY. If the Death Watch attacks the New Mandalorians around ten years before TPM (ie. 42 BBY), then this is after the True Mandalorians have been neutralised and after DW comes under new leadership. Naturally, this helps explain why Satine is so shocked at a trusted guy named Vizsla turning out to be the leader of the Death Watch.

Presumably, Pre Vizsla also rises up the New Mandalorian ranks before becoming Governor of Concordia. How a member of the Death Watch's founding clan does this would be interesting to delve into.

 

Well we see in Voyage of Tempation that she's apparently perfectly comfortable with wielding blasters...deactivator stun blasters, anyway. But considering the timing of her relationship with Obi-Wan, it's unlikely she ever passed her verd'goten.

According to The Essential Guide to Warfare:
"Few Mandalorian clans were united on the subject: The New Mandalorians, True Mandalorians and Death Watch could all claim Ordos, Vizslas, Kryzes, Fetts, Awauds and Tennaus as supporters."

 

Well, look at it this way. Clan Kryze was divided between the major movements during the Civil war and Great Clan Wars. Satine's father was killed, pushing her into the New Mandalorian's non violence camp. Other Kryze members were split between the True Mandos and Death Watch.

Wouldn't surprise me if Clan Viszla planted Pre in the New Mandalorian government as a "reformed" Mandalorian in order to gain their trust. If Satine could come from a warrior clan and be accepted as the leader of the entire government, then they would still be willing to allow former Death Watch members.

 

I agree, I still think it's likely they're headed in that direction, I just thought it would come to fruition in this episode and it didn't.

 

Stay tuned next week, when we meet Bo-Katan's other sister, Luke-Katan; their cousins, Vance-Katan and Coy-Katan; and their Uncle Jesse-Katan.

 

Don't remind me of Vance and Coy, stupid ass posers. Always hated those episodes because they were too cheap to get the original actors.

 

Perhaps instead of being a plant, Pre could have entered the New Mandalorian hierarchy with the best of intentions, before deciding at some point (perhaps after direct contact with the exiled warriors of Concordia during his stint as governor) that pacifism isn't the way forward.

Pre Vizsla's defection might even be the result of Satine being a hardliner and alienating most of her good-intentioned allies to the point of betraying her. Almec and the local police force are a notable example of this, with both ditching her at the first opportunity because of this.

The Fetts? That would be "Fett" as in the clan of the ancient KOTOR-era Mandalorian commander Cassus Fett? AFAIK, Jango Fett's family on Concord Dawn have little to do with Mandalorians before Jaster Mereel show up. There's probably some distinction between the Fetts of Mandalore and the Fetts of Concord Dawn.

 

This sounds an awful lot like Full House somehow.

 

Is the Dukes of Hazzard another show on the list of "stuff Seerow has never watched"?

 

That's an interesting idea. I hope they eventually dig into Pre's backstory more, there's so many ways they could go with that.

According to canon, Cassus and Jango share the same clan. As with the case of cross-faction Kryzes, it's not unreasonable to assume that over the course of a few thousand years, members of the extended clan might have spread out to a number of different worlds, or even abandoned their roles as warriors for non-Mandalorian life at some point.

 

Hmm, so finally got around to watching this. Interesting episode...they killed Satine, they killed the Twilight, Obi-Wan walks into a trap yet again, and apparently Maul's resurrection was enough to bring Darth Sidious out for a lightsaber battle. Interesting indeed...though I still think this whole Maul resurrection plot is an atrocity to Star Wars continuity.

 

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe that Mandalorian with horns on his helmet takes over and has his group challenge the Jedi in an arc in next season.