TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.16 - Lawless - discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Seerow, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    So it's retcon, just like the novel said Maul died in Naboo.

    Both the Black Sun and the Hutt have no true loyalty to Maul, it's not like they would sacrifice themselves against the Republic or the CIS directly. Even the Mandalorians were mostly deceived by him. Yes he got many men around him, but it is easy to dismiss, the strength is not just about the numbers.

    Use apprentice to cleanse opposition is what Sith Masters do, and Sidious used it very well. Even Maul could be his apprentice as well if he is good enough to take out both Dooku and Anakin. You can see how afraid he is before Sidious.
  2. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    @Slowpokeking, since we don't know if Maul actually dies in this episode, Sidious might very well do just that: beat him within an inch of his life in order to purge him of any treasonous thoughts and then put him into play against Anakin, Dooku, Talzin, etc.
  3. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Show Spoiler
    He did say"your existence is now perfectly meaningless." in the end of Lawless. So even if he survived, Sidious has no interest to use him again.


    I think they let Sidious go by himself because

    1. The arc is too rushed, we can see it from the previous ones, Lawless is overall more rushed.
    2. We have different opinion, but kids will mostly want to see a lightsaber duel rather than a lot of manipulation.

    I'm strongly against it because it does not fit Sidious' style and it's a perfect chance for him to show his skill of manipulation with the drama between Anakin, Dooku and Maul. He should start it right after he sensed Maul's return, but too bad all we see is just he go by himself.

    They reduced Sidious' part and kept Anakin/Dooku out of it, which is sad. We know how does Obi Wan think and fight Maul, but never have a chance Anakin and Dooku face him and deal with the scar he left to them 10 years before.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 31, 2013
    Order66Survivor likes this.
  4. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Why? Motivation. To give his student a goal, to plant the seeds of anger and hate, to instil a desire for power. That's how the dark side works, how to dig deepest into it and get the most out of it. If you want to believe otherwise, have at it, but there's been no such change in canon.

    The novel never specifically says any such thing. Anakin makes reference to the Sith Lord Obi-Wan "left in pieces on Naboo", which remains true in fact if not in spirit. Let's not be so quick to throw about retcons...

    Loyalty does not an army make. Find a hundred clone troopers, as loyal to the Republic as possible. Strong in every way, highly trained, and outfitted with the best in arms and armor available to the GAR. And pit them against ten thousand battle droids, who are loyal to nothing but programming. Guess which side is going to win? Make it a hundred Jedi even, as it was at Geonosis. Guess which side is still going to win? I support your sentiment on the strength of will and loyalty, but that alone doesn't overrule a ridiculous numerical advantage.
    Last edited by Mia Mesharad, Jan 31, 2013
  5. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    That's nice.
    It also doesn't adequately explain why Dooku selected Sidious as a target when Savage didn't even know he existed, when he could have selected something equally lofty and more appropriate. Like, say, the Jedi?

    I appreciate your effort to try to keep things tidy, but they really are irreconcilable. Dooku's loyalty to Sidious went out the window as soon as "Nightsisters" rolled around.
  6. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    Like I said, Sidious is the master of the Plan B and he's changed his plans on the fly quite a bit, but he only alters his plans if a) it's absolutely required or b) he gains some benefit from a particular contingency that outweighs any potential drawbacks. Neither are true in this case, unless you're talking about his Kill Maul Dead With My Own Wrinkly Sith Lord Hands plan.

    And for the record, Sidious at least claimed to have been subtly feeding Plagueis the majority of their plan ideas. I mention this only because Sidious rules and Plagueis drools.

    edit: This isn't to say that I wouldn't love a Dooku/Maul duel. In fact I hope such a thing comes to pass before Maul kicks the bucket for good. It's just that I can understand and agree with Sidious's decision to go after Maul himself before sending someone else.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Jan 31, 2013
  7. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Raise Anakin's fury, further test his apprentices, that's all better than he risk himself to deal with them.
    Both sides are loyal but Maul's men are different, also it's not like they are stronger than either the pub or CIS.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 31, 2013
  8. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    @Mia Mesharad

    http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsideth...k-sneak-peeks-full-episode-of-clone-wars.html
  9. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    Sad. I much prefer the Dooku who truly believed he would serve as the commander of a New Sith Order under Sidious. It makes that betrayal by Sidious on the Invisible Hand -- Sidious not intervening and sparing Dooku if Anakin gained the upper hand -- all the more meaningful and important.

    Considering Dooku could be lying to Savage, I'll keep my idea of Dooku as he was in 2005.
    Order66Survivor and Mia Mesharad like this.
  10. SpecialOpsUnit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2007
    star 4
    That third clip is remarkable, I love the surprise and fear in Maul's voice and face when he realizes Palps has actually come himself to Mandalore.

    I can't wait and they're actually using William's full Emperor theme for the last 10 seconds of the clip.
    Order66Survivor, V-2 and Seerow like this.
  11. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    My thoughts on Sidious personally coming to Mandalore are this: Maul poses a huge threat to the Grand Plan; he knows of the true reason for the Clone Wars and the identity of Sidious. If he divulges either of this information under interrogation to the Jedi, Sidious is in huge strife. Dooku could beat Maul, but why leave it to chance? Dooku couldn't beat Savage, so how will he beat Maul and Savage? Indeed, Sidious doesn't even know where Maul's allegiance lies: is he angry at Sidious for abandoning him and seeking revenge or does he still serve the Sith Order? Sidious had to come to Mandalore.
    Last edited by JackG, Jan 31, 2013
  12. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I don't think he really got a choice if he's smart enough to know his master's nature.

    Yes that duel was very well written, but it's a bit weird to see he was so good at the power of the Dark Side without knowing the law of the Sith.

    No, Maul knew neither of it, Dooku know both of them but Sidious didn't kill Dooku by himself.

    Dooku got a lot of minions to use, even Hondo's pirates owned Maul brothers.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 31, 2013
    Order66Survivor likes this.
  13. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    I wonder what excuse Palptaine used to get off Courscant, as the Chancellor of the Republic it might be a bit noticeable that he has gone off somewhere
    Order66Survivor and V-2 like this.
  14. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Show Spoiler
    "There is a disturbance in the Force", then Mas Amedda prepared the shuttle for him.
    Order66Survivor likes this.
  15. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    That's not true. Maul knew both the identity of Sidious and of the Clone Wars, see Darth Plagueis/End Game and Revenge, respectively.
    V-2 likes this.
  16. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Maul was only used to do part of the plan such slaughter the Black Sun, Sidious never told him the purpose or his identity as Palpatine.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 31, 2013
  17. Jordan1Kenobi Host of EUC Battle of... Games

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Yes, Maul knew that Sidious was Palpatine and his plans for the Clone Wars.
    V-2 likes this.
  18. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    Watch this, please.
    Order66Survivor and V-2 like this.
  19. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Where?
  20. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I watched it long ago. He didn't mention Palpatine, only Sidious as "the most powerful being of the galaxy", and Sidious did let him do a lot of stuff related to the war, so he knew there would be a war, just didn't know much about the purpose.

    He's just a tool and assassin of Sidious, why would Sidious let him know these?
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 31, 2013
  21. Jordan1Kenobi Host of EUC Battle of... Games

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Because he was supposed to be his apprentice for the entire war. Sidious didn't even know about Anakin before Maul was his apprentice, and he didn't work with Dooku until he needed a new apprentice, so of course he would of told him everything.
  22. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Maul was never trained to be a true Sith Lord, but just his personal assassin rather than something like Dooku, so Sidious would not tell him his plan unless it's necessary, or not until Maul's role change after Plagueis' death, but Maul was "killed" around the same time he killed Plagueis.

    Also when he was killing Plagueis he still said Maul was used to do what he could not risk himself to do.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 31, 2013
  23. MistrX Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2006
    star 4

    Why would he worry about Maul? Pretty sure Maul knows what he looks like. I may be remembering wrong, but I believe Sidious appears to Maul on occasion sans hood in Wrath of Darth Maul or Darth Plagueis. Maybe End Game as well. Anyway, Maul's stood within a handful of feet from Sidious before. Palpatine is the chancellor, so it's only a matter of time before Maul even sees his face in that guise as well.

    And clearly Maul was aware of the Clone War plan since he comments to Savage that it started without him. I'm believing more and more that Maul is well aware of Sidious' identity, much as Dooku was. And that's certainly not something Sidious wants getting out.
  24. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    His image was shown and CIS leaders as well but the CIS leader don't know he was the chancellor.

    He knew part of the war since he was given mission, but not much beyond that, not the true purpose of the war.
    Order66Survivor likes this.
  25. Jordan1Kenobi Host of EUC Battle of... Games

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Have you agreed with anything anyone has said the past couple of days? Lol. If everyone is saying Maul knew the identity of Sidious and the plan of the Clone Wars, then I think that's enough evidence to say it's true.