Full Series The Clone Wars - 5.16 - Lawless - discussion thread

That's just it though, it's pretty obvious he's facing Maul himself because both of them are a threat to his master plan. Can he send Dooku and Grievous and a boat load of droids? Yea of course he can, but then we wouldn't have this epic battle which the writers and viewers want so bad.. Plot necesity requires Sidious to get his hands dirty here and that's just what's going to happen.

 

Oh I see it, so Sidious is dumber than I thought. But he could still use others to deal with it just like he did to Dooku.

In Plagueis he didn't know much.

A battle rather than manipulation and scheme for Sidious?

Because they are Jedi, and he could easily use others to do the job to take out Maul, or let Maul join him again, rather than take the risk to expose himself.

Maul's forces are really weak if you look at it carefully, I already explained why.

 

I agree, Sidious is the puppet master of both the Republic and Separatist, if there was a third party that he did not have control of, it could ruin everything. Plus if Maul were to talk too much, get captured and interrogated, or form a truce with the Jedi he could reveal Palpatine as the Sith Lord. He has no allegiance to Sidious now so why wouldn't he spill the beans, Sidious wants to shut him up before he does.

 

Yea there is no way Sidious uses Maul at this point. Like you said he would have to lie to both Dooku and Maul, plus he would still have to keep his little act as chancelor. That's a lot of things at once, something is bound to go wrong.

 

The rebel was out of his control, but did he go by himself to deal with them? He sense Luke would be a real big threat to him, but did he try to kill Luke by himself rather than use Vader to do the job?

Dooku knew everything of him, did Sidious go kill him by himself?

He is lying to Anakin and Dooku at the same time, why would that be a problem for him?

 

Perhaps he is curious as to how Maul is still alive, maybe he thinks Maul discovered something about the ability to cheat death. He goes himself rather than sending Dooku cause he doesn't want to Dooku to know the secret.

Dooku was still his apprentice and had allegiance to him when he was killed, why would he go kill him?

 

Spoiler

No, he simply wants to kill Maul.

Dooku was also planning to overthrow him(the Savage arc) as well.

 

Because Anakin and Dooku aren't his apprentices at the same time.
To be fair to Sidious, probably only Dooku could be trusted to take Maul out, and he could be busy doing his own stuff. I don't even know if Dooku could take out Maul and Savage, and if he failed it'd make Maul more likely to reveal the truth.
An invasion of Mandalore would I assume allow the Republic to involve themselves and for whatever reason Sidious wanted Mandalore to be allied to the CIS.
And there's no way he'd just kill the guy that survived being cut in half, Sidious wants to live forever.

 

Maul is also no longer his apprentice, use both sides for his own good is what he did at best, that's what the grand plan is about.

Dooku could bring a bunch of elite assassin droids with the brothers, if Dooku succeeded, then it's not a problem anymore, if he failed, then that means Maul is proved to be a better apprentice. Isn't that what Sith' logic work? Then Sidious could use him to further test Anakin

Not invasion, but like what Sidious did. And the Mandalorians did join the CIS later unless they retcon it.

 

But he doesn't have any desire to risk Dooku, if Dooku dies the CIS loses his head person who's very respected by many worlds.
Sidious doesn't really care who the apprentice is as his ultimate aim is Anakin, so its irrelevant if Maul is stronger, his plan is working perfectly why risk messing it up for an apprentice that would last 1-3 years and who isn't integrated into the galactic conflict.
If he does end up taking Maul and testing him to see if he is worthy then that will be so so bad.

 

I've already addressed why: 1. Sidious might not want Maul dead 2. why Jedi should not be sent 3. why Sidious may not want to send Dooku.

1 & 3: Sidious may want to see what Maul is capable of.

3: getting Maul, Savage and Dooku together is a bad idea. The whole point of the Rule of Two is that there is potential for the weaker Sith to unite and overthrow the master. I don't buy that Maul and Dooku would be opposed to working together on the grounds that they hate each other (Sith are supposed to hate each other).

2: the Jedi would be liable to CAPTURE Maul. The Jedi do not want him dead. Allowing a Sith to fall into custody by sending the Jedi would be a terrible idea on Sidious' part..

 

CIS is meant to lose, and he could control them as Sidious for a little short while. Why risk himself of being exposed?

He does, if Anakin is stronger than Maul, then Anakin should prove it like he did in EP III against Dooku. That's how Sith' logic works. Later that clone Maul mostly is also his idea to test Vader.

 

Spoiler

He said "Your existence is now perfectly meaningless." in the end of SC.

There is no way they will team up for obvious reason, do you see Dooku team up with Anakin? Even in EP V, we don't see Sidious go by himself to deal with Luke from the beginning, Luke is a much bigger threat in his eyes.

The Jedi also don't want Dooku dead, then did Sidious go kill Dooku by himself?

Use Maul to do the dirty jobs, use Anakin to kill Dooku, use Vader to fight his son, that always has been Sidious' style, and it's really not wise to ruin it in TCW.

 

It's easIy to lie to both parties when you're playing puppet master on both sides. But when you lie to two people playing the same position, then well that's a little different wouldn't you say. Dooku finds out about Sidious's betrayel and you can pretty much kiss that master plan goodbye. Dooku is still the guy in charge of the CIS forces and Grievous will always be loyal to Dooku. Not to mention Sidious would be caught with his pants down right next door to Mace Windu and Yoda. Yea, go ahead and lie to Dooku and see what happens.

 

Dooku did want to team up with Anakin in the novelization. Anakin was going to denounce the Jedi. Dooku is clearly trying to provoke Anakin to give into his anger and hatred in ROTS. There would be no point in doing so if Dooku just wanted to kill him. You don't try to get your enemy to tap into their power and taste the Dark Side if you want them dead. You do it when you want to turn them.

Palpatine wanted to turn Luke and he explicitly says that only together will they be able to do it. Also the Rule of Two likely didn't exist back then (out of universe), otherwise it really doesn't make sense - because otherwise between the lines both are openly saying to each other "hey, I'm going to kill you."

Sidious DID have Dooku killed rather than encouraging capture...

 

I really disagree with this whole testing, he knows Anakin's potential, the times they've duelled and Anakin has one proper win in ROTS, Sidious was just waiting until Anakin grew in power. Had Dooku won on the Invisible Hand does the novel go into the plan then I don't remember. I think Palpatine cares more about ruling the galaxy than who he rules it with, Maul may have messed up the war by alienating half the CIS, then how would Palpatine take over effectively.

I really doubt he thought Maul would surpass him, he thought Anakin would, though yes if Maul was the apprentice in ROTS and Anakin couldn't match him I suppose it would depend on just how good Maul was.

 

He did lie to Dooku about corrupt Anakin and let him join them, Dooku followed in EP III.

And Sidious is truly behind the CIS, even after Dooku's death both GG and those leaders obey his order.

If Sidious go by himself, Yoda would sense his presence in the Force, then once they find out the chancellor was missing around that time, then GG. Remember what did Dooku tell Obi Wan in EP II?

That's Sidious' order, their plan was to kill Obi Wan, let Dooku lose to Anakin then corrupt Anakin on the way. They don't take it as a big deal to break the Rule of Two.

Sidious tried to let Vader do the job first, then he came up and didn't fight by himself first.

Yes, then why should he worry about the Jedi(most Anakin, who hate Maul) would capture rather than kill Maul?

 

I thought it was something along the lines that if Dooku won, Anakin would be spared and allowed to escape to become stronger. While if Anakin won, Dooku would be arrested, Grievous would be used as a scapegoat for the war, Anakin would turn to the Dark Side and denounce the Jedi Order, and then Dooku would be pardoned and allowed to rule over a new Jedi Order.

It's difficult to say. Just because someone isn't "The Chosen One" doesn't mean that they can't surpass Palpatine. I don't think Palpatine would invest so much time in an apprentice if he didn't see the potential. Maul was still rather young. Who knows how powerful he'd be in his 50s or 60s. Dooku was very powerful, but also old and still not as powerful as Anakin. Had Maul remained Sidious' apprentice, he may have one day surpassed his master, but it might not have been for several more decades.

Sidious didn't usurp the position of master until the events of TPM, and by that time he was what? In his 50s? As Dooku says, a master does not reveal all their secrets at once. Maul likely had A LOT more to learn. But once his training neared its completion, he may very well have surpassed Sidious.

 

If Palpatine was so confident in Maul's ability he probably wouldn't go kill him, he could just keep him as a secret apprentice and have him face Dooku after the war/Vader.

 

We don't know what Palpatine will do. Obviously Maul won't stick around after the war (or at least God I hope not).

But still, the implication is that Dooku is more powerful than Maul and also has a role to play in leading the CIS. Maul has no place in the current plan of things. And Sidious has spent the last decade watching and manipulating Anakin, grooming him to be a future apprentice, rendering even Dooku expendable.

Maul's only significant accomplishment that might be of interest to Sidious is that he managed to survive being cut in half. Now whether TCW decided to make a big deal out of that has yet to be seen. IMO that seems like something that Sidious should be interested in, but then again he might shrug it off as insignificant. Maybe it's nothing particularly special to survive being cut in half in his eyes.

In ROTS we see Palpatine hop on a shuttle and race across the galaxy to save Vader when he senses that Vader is in danger. I don't get the impression that Palpatine did the same for Maul (buy I don't know that). My understanding is that by that time it seemed like Sidious was already grooming Dooku to take his place.

 

No he wouldn't. Yoda has been in Palpatine's company for years and has never sensed the dark side within him.

 

I'm curious as to whether it might be Obi-Wan and Death Watch that saves Maul (going with the assumption he survives). Obi-Wan may not be able to sense Palpatine's presence, but he might sense Savage or Maul getting beat up.Which would create an opportunity for Maul to fall into Republic custody and force Maul and Palpatine to play an awkward game of:

Palpatine: I can have you killed.
Maul: But if you try it, I'll expose your plan.

 

7 hours left till The Lawless

 

Damn Canadians.

 

Sidious would have great use of Maul,he could control 2000 neutral systems that stand behind Maul now and somehow drag them to join separatists.So it makes no sense to me when Sidious says to Maul he is meaningless now.Basicly he just wants to show Maul he still makes or breaks his life.Dont think Maul will die.