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TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.17 - Sabotage - discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Seerow, Feb 6, 2013.

  1. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 14, 2008
    I was reminded of the Iraq War, when Mace windu mentioned about the war becoming more unpopular over time.

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jun 8, 2002

    A man with a gun is not the same thing as a man who can move objects with his mind, strangle people without touching them, read thoughts and control free will.
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    The Iraq War never seemed to have the phenomenon of blaming the soldiers as much as, say, the Vietnam War did. There was much more blame and distrust of the leadership. And as CT said, when American embassies were bombed, we never accused the diplomats of doing it. Or to use another example, when American soldiers were killed by roadside bombs in Iraq, we never accused them of doing it to themselves. At least most of us haven't; you do hear of the crazy people who think that everything is a government conspiracy.

    I've researched the People's Inquest and such enough to know that anti-Jedi sentiment was out there, and that many people associated the Jedi with the war, but this episode didn't indicate why that sentiment was growing at that particular point in time.
  4. tal0nkarrde

    tal0nkarrde Jedi Knight star 2

    Dec 1, 2005
    Actually, I had no idea - thanks! Now the ending of the episode makes sense. I thought they just might leave in hanging like that. You have renewed my faith.
  5. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 2, 2012
    Jedi are ideals. They're righteous warriors who travel the galaxy righting wrongs and protecting the innocent. They save the day with a flick of their wrist, a wave of their hand, or the swing of their saber. They're unstoppable forces for good, benevolent protectors. They've been at the Republic's side through the millennia, staving off the Neo-Crusaders during the Mandalorian Wars, keeping the galaxy together through the Sith Wars both New and Old. From their Temple towers, they're a pillar of light.

    Except they're not, anymore.

    At the head of the war effort, they've been exposed to the public as flesh and blood instead of fantasized supermen wrapped in brown cloaks. They're not the distant ideal they once were. They're losing battles, they're letting worlds fall, and they're letting down the people's expectations. They're not living up to what people have been led—or what they led themselves—to be believe. And worse still, they're not just letting us down, they're turning on us. Dooku was a Jedi that now leads the enemy. Kadrian Sey, Tol Skorr, Nikkos Tyris, and Sora Bulq—all of these turned on the Jedi to join Dooku as Dark Acolytes. Quinlan Vos nearly lost himself, just the same. Depa Billaba, Pong Krell, Rhad Tarn...all turned to the dark side. How many examples does it take before people begin to wonder if something's beginning to go very wrong with their heroes?
  6. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 7, 2011
    Honestly I think TCW has been subtly building some distrust for a while. I try to forget "Pursuit of Peace" however there was some stuff about how folks in the Republic couldn't take hot showers or read in the dark there. Anyone remember the talking billboard from "Padawan Lost" where Palp was apparently quieting concerns about the Jedi? He was absically debunking rumors about the Jedi dragging the war out to gain more governing power if you listen to that dialogue. I'm gonna go out on my connect the dots limb.

    Just like how "Corruption" and "The Academy" both set some precedence for why Mandalore was sick of Satine's government and were quick to get behind Vizsla. That could be part of the source for why folks are protesting the Jedi. The people are making 'sacrifices', the Republic is in bankruptcy and growing more tired as the war drags on. Its not always just clones that are killed. Remember Ahsoka's blunder on Mandalore that got some of the senate guard guys killed? And Remember what Ahsoka said about "I'd think working for the Jedi" paid better implying to me that Letta's home was below middle class (I wonder what she would have said about Cut's farm house?). Who really paid Letta's husband for working at the temple? The Jedi? Was it the GAR? The government? Doesn't the government equal Tax Payers? Are the Jedi a non profit organisation that takes donations?

    The Jedi kinda seem like super heroes, the stuff of legend. That's probably accurate to how they are seen. They are peace keepers who were forced to take the role of Generals. Since they were peace keepers it probably used to be people looked to the Jedi to end wars. Now here they are fighting a war that's dragging on. People are getting disillusioned with the Jedi's current role and old role and crossing wires. They can't end the war but in the past they might have ended wars either diplomatically or via force. People might protest the Jedi for that thinking they can end the war at anytime but won't.

    Folks IU as has been stated by other posts probably have never seen a Jedi for a most part. I doubt they are that familiar with the darkside vs the lightside. I don't think alot of them understand the Jedi's abilities or their religion and that alone would probably cause distrust among people. In real life people get that way in masses. People love to look for someone else to blame for their problems. Palp may be doing that a bit behind the scenes. There is tons of unwarrented racism and distrust toward different groups IRL. Except this a an organisation that works for the people. They know Dooku is an ex-Jedi who led them into the war. They might know something about the betrayal of Krell. There were clone survivors to tell the tale. We unfortunately were never given proper follow up to the aftermath of Umbara, atleast not yet. Fives knew Krell had high casualty numbers though, imagine if that became public knowledge?Those damn expensive clones are a cause of the Republic's financial problems and here is this deranged Jedi throwing them away? Damn. The Jedi bombing themselves (as was the suspicion) might be a last straw something is wrong with them.

    Its quite likely the Senate and Palp's home get picketed as well but this arc is more focused on distrusting the Jedi.
  7. Kualan

    Kualan Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 4, 2008
    Not to mention it's easier to protest outside a church than it is a government building without running the risk of being shot as a security threat.
  8. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 7, 2011
    I imagine if you go up or try to get inside the senate building and get rowdy with a protest your gonna get arrested and likely shot by one of those red clones if you get all Cindy Sheehan on them. I would think that would go double for going to Palp's home.
    Original Oatmeal likes this.
  9. KenobiSkywalker

    KenobiSkywalker Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 3, 2012
    I can't think of too many churches around here that have lightsaber wielding followers or are leading a war. :p

    But otherwise, yeah, I think the Jedi are far less likely to act against the protesters than the Senate would be.
    Order66Survivor and Seerow like this.
  10. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 7, 2011
    KenobiSkywalker, that's the point. If you manager to rile of a Jedi enough he's probably going to just cut your arm off anyways. That's harsh but things are less likely to get fatal.
  11. Zabrak 2

    Zabrak 2 Jedi Padawan star 2

    Sep 7, 2012
    Good episode 7/10

    + Cin Drallig
    + Cato Neimodia
    + Eta 2

    - No explosion scene
    - Anakin using the force screws ROTS.
    Order66Survivor and rumblewagon like this.
  12. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Sep 16, 2005
    Just think of all those poor fanfic authors lamenting that Cin "the troll" has grown in stature to equal Anakin. More EU ripping apart. :p (/joke)
  13. GunganSlayer

    GunganSlayer Jedi Master star 3

    Jan 24, 2013

    I don't know, I mean, lol, we have seen complete incompetence by security forces, both in the Senate Chamber and in the Jedi Temple, when those buildings were infiltrated by armed thugs ;)
  14. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 10, 2012
    Nice episode, it seemed like a standalone self contained story so it'll be interesting to see what direction this arc goes in. I'm aiming to stay spoiler free.

    Regarding the word play, doesn't the wife of G'Kar walk in on them scanning for nanodroids? It feels as though maybe the script editor decided to sacrifice some logic for a Zero Wing reference...
  15. pronker

    pronker Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 28, 2007
    It was oddly paced; good setup, I guess. I enjoy the slower paced programs, did not get the 'Russo/Caruso' thing so thanks for telling me, TFN!

    + the way that the regular folks moved away from Anakin when he entered the infirmary. They'd been more or less neutrally stanced, then each one turned his back to Anakin.
    + Ahsoka's pat to the shoulder to each person questioned
    + the way that Anakin leaped into the room where Ahsoka was investigating with her scanner, like he would not let her get hurt on his watch
    + Obi-Wan was first present in the council chambers, then was only a hologram later on. Good sense of time passing.
    + the upraised dead arm of someone in the blast area, in shadow
    + Ahsoka's montrals looked like they were growing, more pointing outward. Signs of maturity?
    + getting an idea of how the Temple hangar employees and pay system work- I threw out every EU and fanfiction bit of detail I'd read and just flowed with the ... flow. TCW, take me away!
    + Mace
    + Cin

    - Cato Neimoidia being attacked, why? Nice visuals, though.
    - Ahsoka bobbing over to Anakin's ship, loosing her footing, disappearing ... then up she pops. Ditto for Artooey and his crash over the cliff.
    - the whole redo of the Battle over Coruscant from ROTS ... nah. Even the use of the Oddball looking over each shoulder seemed too much copying.
    - the nasty tick-like infestation under Anakin's ship - ugh. Cannot even type what it looked like. Need Brain Bleach now.

    Need to rewatch to catch Barriss!
    Order66Survivor and rumblewagon like this.
  16. Deputy Rick Grimes

    Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Sep 3, 2012
    you are welcome
  17. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 24, 2004
    Yes, she walks in on them scanning for nano-droids. Ahsoka also scans her for nano-droids.
    V-2 likes this.
  18. rezpen

    rezpen Jedi Master star 4

    May 4, 2010
    People are saying this is bad writing, pointless, etc. I think the reason the battle was specifically set on Cato Neimoidia is because if the Jedi are defending it from a Separatist invasion it shows just how pointless the war actually is and how bad the Jedi are getting played. It is a pure charade.
    Order66Survivor likes this.
  19. Deputy Rick Grimes

    Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Sep 3, 2012
    How does using the force on the buzz droids kill ROTS, think about it, one was in space, one wasn't, maybe you can't use the force in space
    Order66Survivor likes this.
  20. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 10, 2012
    It's pointing out the inconsistency in RotS. You're always 'in space', just as you're always in time*... If use of the force is dependant on being inside the influence of a planet's gravity, then that creates more questions than answers.

    *Possible exception: hyperspace.
    Order66Survivor and CT-867-5309 like this.
  21. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 5, 2011
    Except Plo Koon already has used the Force in space.
  22. Drunk_Lando

    Drunk_Lando Jedi Knight star 1

    Oct 19, 2010
    Maybe it is just me, but I see victim blaming when it comes to the Jedi. We know what happens to the Jedi in the end. They lose. Since people don't like to identify with losers, they hate the Jedi, especially since the Jedi were suppose to be heroes, and heroes should not be tricked throughout an entire story and then lose in the end. Palpatine and Dooku tricked the Republic and the CIS into going to war, and tricked the Senate into giving Palpatine new political powers, but only the Jedi are called fools.

    This episode shows people protesting the war. Why? The show constantly has the Republic and the Jedi winning. It shows humans and alien beings being freed from slavery and oppression by the CIS and its allies. There should be a pro-war demonstrating right next to the anti-war one. And one of these anti-war protesters did a terrorist act. A woman turns her husband into a bomb (we assume this was done secretly, without his permission) and blows him up killing Jedi, clones, and civilian/military workers. Wouldn't this actually hurt the anti-war movement? Funny how this episode doesn't even bring this up. It is like it was saying the woman was justified in her actions.

    Also, for the people say the Jedi should not have fought in the Clone Wars? Does you also think Luke should not have fought in the Galactic Civil War of any war for the New Republic? A Jedi is suppose to be a peacekeeper right. Or do you let Luke get away with it because you know the future of his character. Hindsight is always 20/20.
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    Who are we talking about in regards to doing the "victim blaming" here? The general public of the GFFA regarding the Jedi? They associated the Jedi with the war and have no idea that they are getting played so badly by Palpatine.

    I've seen a lot of victim-blaming as far as the Jedi in the movie forums but haven't seen much in this thread. I'm tired and bummed right now so maybe I missed something?
  24. Embomania

    Embomania Jedi Knight star 1

    Feb 2, 2013
    It's possible that Obi-Wan just didn't think to use the force. Simple as that. His cockpit was fogging up, the mission was much more dire, lots of pressure...use headcanon.
    pronker likes this.
  25. Drunk_Lando

    Drunk_Lando Jedi Knight star 1

    Oct 19, 2010
    I refer to the audience and the show itself as victim blaming. The victim blaming is not just referring to this thread. But for this episode, we have an anti-war activist doing a terrorist act and the reaction in this episode is that the Jedi must be doing something wrong for her to do this. The show is not even blaming the women for the violence she caused. The show is justifying her act by blaming the Jedi.
    Why would the public of the GFFA associated the war just with the Jedi? The Jedi are one part of the war. There are clones, droids, sentient beings who are in the Republic and CIS armies, as well as mercenaries and bounty hunters, and don't forget the military and defense forces of the individual planets of the Republic and the CIS. Also, we have the politicians on both sides.