TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.18 - The Jedi Who Knew Too Much - discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Seerow, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Fine. Yes, it would be fun. Don't diss me for saying so. I am sure they will give a reason.

    I love it how people now want some very deep reason for going bad. Is the desire for power such a hard concept to understand (for Krell)!? Is the concept of Dooku so hard to understand!? Is the idea that doing what you think is right might not be the right thing in the end?!
    Last edited by Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan, Feb 24, 2013
  2. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    You have no idea of Barriss' character or personality, do you?

    Yes, I'd like an actual reason for going bad. You bring up Krell. He randomly turns into a cackling moron in the last episode! It's fine if you're satisfied with mediocre writing because it's fun, but I'd like to understand why this character would suddenly do this, especially when they're overwriting existing material. If you're going to do that, you should at least replace it with something better!
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Feb 24, 2013
  3. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Even when people are seeking power, they usually want it for a reason, which they then use to justify their evil deeds. So yeah, when a Jedi who has shown no signs of aggression, much less meanness, in the past is suddenly blowing up the Temple, I need more than "it looked like fun."

    Sadly I'm afraid Filoni played eenie-meenie-miney-mo with several EU "good" Jedi and landed on Barriss, and he doesn't give a **** about a reason, just shock value as someone mentioned either earlier in this thread or another one.
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  4. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    We don't know that yet. Not knowing is fun!
  5. Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Yes, I do. I know her character. It would be funny if it is retconned that her pacifist ways were just a cover... [face_dancing]

    Ok.... obviously you have some misguided idea of how a SW villain works. You want another sappy "Anakin"-like story!? What is so hard for you to get the concept of Krell. Krell foresaw the future, saw that the Republic was gonna lose so he decided to join the winning team.
    I do not see the problem.

    Even Sidious's motives in the all the movies are like Krell's. They are not complex, they are not deep. The guy wants power and just does what he has to so he could get it. Is that so hard to grasp?
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  6. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    @Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan Alright, so you know her character so well that you're aware that Barriss doesn't believe in the dark side, right? She believes in moral rightness and that the Force can be misused, but she does not attribute this to any kind of "side". I can believe that she wants the Jedi out of this war, but it does not fit Barriss' character in any way to go to such extremes to get her point across. Your non-caring emoticon also portrays that you simply, well, don't care about proper character development.

    No, Anakin's fall in ROTS isn't the shining example of a great character fall from grace either. I just want a plausible explanation. Sidious makes sense, he was brought up as Plagueis' apprentice and didn't think that Plagueis' way of being equals and forsaking the Rule of Two was good for the Sith, so he killed him and got his own apprentice, ensuring that he didn't teach Maul all his powers and knowledge.

    You're correct in that Sidious becomes a cackling villain but it works because Sidious has been playing this role of being this well-mannered Chancellor of the Republic. When he's finally able to let loose on, say, Maul and Savage he's just pumped up and having a blast. The same applies to the end of ROTJ, he just enjoys the torment that Luke is enduring.

    Krell began as someone who didn't believe in the clones' individuality - they are clones after all. He was an ends justify the means kind of guy - the clones were brought in to be the muscle and if brute-forcing his way into a fortress got him the fortress, it didn't matter how many grunts died. Once Carnage of Krell comes around he just turns into a moron, jumping around and laughing manically. Like I said, works for Sidious because of the development, not for Krell.

    In regards to me not understanding SW villains, let's look at the most iconic one of all - Darth Vader. He's strong and seems 100% corrupted by evil, but why does he do what he does? He's given up, he's been broken by Sidious' machinations. At times he thinks of overthrowing Sidious, but he's pretty much become a slave, and thoughts of betraying his Master are blasphemy. When he discovers his son lives, again conflicted opinions arise. Do I turn him to the dark side, and let him replace me? He has no hope against Sidious. Do I lunge for one final opportunity for redemption, and risk my own life, and my son's life in the process? Only the bad SW villains have no development.

    I honestly don't know if this discussion is productive because it seems clear to me you're just here for the spectacle and the lulz, not rich character development and strong plots.
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Feb 25, 2013
  7. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    This story has rich character development and a strong plot.
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  8. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    For Ahsoka and Anakin, I'd agree. However, the actual murder mystery plot is about to fall apart at the seams if the culprit doesn't have a strong, believable motive for doing what she's doing, and given who it looks to be, and that they only have 22 minutes to play that out, I'm not optimistic.

    Again though, I'm not judging the arc until we've seen the whole thing.
  9. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    For Tarkin, too, as well as Barriss. Even Mace got a little closer to his character in ROTS!

    The nature of these kind of stories is to have twists and turns and red herrings... I like the idea of Barriss turning dark, I also like the idea that the mystery Jedi lady could be Maul in drag. Literally anything could happen and I love it!
  10. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Tarkin has been wonderful. Barriss, I passionately disagree with, but I can't render my full judgement on it until the end of the week.

    One of my biggest problem with this story arc is that it is, in fact, too obvious. You say "anything could happen", but many of us had guessed Barriss even back in Sabotage, as the animators had her look in the room that Anakin was interrogating Letta in. Ahsoka on the run has been great, but the actual murder mystery has been incredibly poor IMO.
  11. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    I don't think it's as obvious as all that. I mean, the whole premise of TCW suffers from Columbo syndrome, we know what happens and who's responsible, the fun is in the details.
  12. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Well, yeah. What I mean is that this has just been a very poor mystery. There's been very few suspects, and the show has only left one remaining suspect for the final episode. There should still be two or three likely suspects at this point, so that the finale is a big surprise.
  13. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    The finale could (hopefully) be a cliffhanger!

    Barriss could be a Manchurian Candidate, but I don't think she was the attacker in 5.19.
    Last edited by V-2, Feb 25, 2013
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  14. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Yeah, a good cliffhanger would be nice. The majority opinion in LACWAC seems to be that Barriss was the attacker, who do you think it was? [face_thinking]
  15. Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Brainwashed Barriss would be a nice twist and would not upset people so much.
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Hmmm...Manchurian candidate.

    That could be done, but that's a hell of a lot for 22 minutes.
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  17. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    Reminds me of the swift explanation of Krell's motives in Carnage of Krell; everything was really rushed.
  18. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    Well, okay it does seem likely, but that's mainly why I think/hope it's someone else! I wouldn't be that upset if she did turn out to be the attacker. I think she's definitely involved in the plot, probably involved with Ventress somehow. I wouldn't be surprised if Dooku or Maul was involved.

    At first I thought it might be a certain Mandalorian lady and the force manipulation stuff was elaborate theatrics, but then I noticed she also did it while hiding from Ahsoka, so that pretty much rules that one out.

    Then I considered that if it is Barriss, she never actually tried to kill Ahsoka, she just put her in the right spot to find the clue she mentioned earlier (if rather forcefully). Though why she'd want to do that while pretending to be Ventress is anyone's guess. If she is being forced/manipulated into incriminating Ahsoka then maybe, somehow she was trying to help her friend in some way.

    We know Tarkin is involved, though how much he knows and to what extent he's pulling the strings is a mystery. We know Sidious is at the top of the pyramid and benefits no matter what, but which of his discrete factions is executing the plot, and is it actually under Sid's orders? Are there competing factions involved? Is this an actual Jedi plot?

    Actually I just thought, Sid wouldn't benefit if Ahsoka's conviction alienated Anakin from Palpatine....

    I might be over-thinking this. ;)
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  19. Quirkiness101 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2013
    star 1
    Something to keep in mind: many of us are viewing this from the context of having all this additional material detailing Barriss's views and such. The writers of TCW have to operate under the assumption that the viewer will not have said knowledge. Thus, we have to view Barriss's views solely from what we've seen in the series, and if you do that, you'll find very little to contradict the idea of her bombing the temple:
    -Very by-the-books apprentice (start)
    -Fast forward three seasons and she apparently is having attachment issues
    -She has a master who is very detached from her

    Given that we have little yet to explain her actions, but not the EU mountain of evidence showing those actions to be out of character.
    Last edited by Quirkiness101, Feb 25, 2013
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  20. Theo333 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2011
    star 2
    Well this extremely vague characterization will naturally lead to "My goal is to bomb the Temple, kill several people, and frame my best and possibly only friend for murder."
  21. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    When I first saw this episode, I thought it felt really awkward and out-of-place when Barriss said "Nothing will ever change," but now I feel like it may have been part of her motive being set up without us even knowing it.
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  22. Quirkiness101 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2013
    star 1
    I think you missed the bolded line.
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  23. Theo333 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2011
    star 2
    No, I didn't. It's still out of character even with TCW Barriss as a standalone character. Maybe if she showed more extreme actions or ranted a little bit about the war or secretly resented Ahsoka.
    Last edited by Theo333, Feb 27, 2013
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  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Still doesn't add up. Pessimism or apathy doesn't a bomber make.
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  25. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    I wasn't trying to say that alone would work as the entire explanation, just that they could have been setting up the explanation without us realizing it all along. I did write part of her motive.
    V-2 likes this.