Full Series The Clone Wars - 5.20 - The Wrong Jedi (Season Finale) - discussion thread

Unfortunately I think Barriss heartlessly picked Ahsoka because she was her friend and Barriss knew she could control Ahsoka. See "Brain Invaders" where Barriss is the leader between two of them. Picking Ahsoka was honestly one of her big mistakes, along with thinking hitting Ventress with a pipe was enough to kill her, and not tossing the red lightsabers out. I actually don't think Palpatine had much to do with Barriss's scheme to bomb the Jedi Temple. The episode is much stronger without his direct involvement. I think Barriss acted on her own with a violence meets violence philosophy trying to protest in that way much the same as the picketers early the the episode. This is because she sees the Jedi as fallen heroes and nothing more the Senate's living weapons leading their destructive armies. She framed Ahsoka to take the fall and to create a great divide between regular joes, the Senate, and the Jedi themselves. The sad look of regret in her eyes is because of what she did to Ahsoka among other things.

 

I don't think she went that far. True she despised the Jedi for being such warmongers but there were no signs of her falling down to the dark side. (expect when she ignited ventress' lightsabers and said " I think they suit me")

More like the means justify the end philosophy..

 

Great episode, i really think Season 5 turned out to be an amazing season, despite certain episodes. This season sure had some of the best lightsaber duels.

 

It's different because then it doesn't have anything close to the same emotional impact. It's just anonymous villain of the week. Nobody cares. Yes, the Krell arc was interesting, but it was interesting because it was told from the point of view of the clones - it was really their story, and demonstrated how they changed over the course of the war. It worked because your emotional investment was in clone troopers you'd come to know and care about. If you're going to demonstrate how much the Jedi have changed, and what the effect of the war on them has been, you can't just do it by introducing Master Im'a Gonna Turnevil.

The prequel trilogy is all about betrayal by people you thought you could trust. Palpatine, seemingly a kindly, grandfatherly old man to the citizens of the Republic, betrays the Republic by turning out to be a tyrant and a Sith Lord. Dooku, the greatest and wisest of masters, betrays the Jedi Order. The Sepratist systems betray the Republic, which then betrays its own principles to get them back. Sidious betrays Maul, and then betrays Dooku. Dooku betrays Ventress. The Separatists betray Mina Bonteri, and Lux betrays them right back by fighting against them. Ziro is betrayed by Sy Snootles. Moralo Eval is betrayed by Obi-wan. Satine is betrayed by her people, her former Prime Minister, and her own sister. Ahsoka is suspected of betrayal, but then arguably betrays them by walking away. Krell betrays the clones, who betray him in return. Anakin feels betrayed by the Council. Anakin betrays the Jedi. Obi-wan feels betrayed by Anakin. Anakin feels betrayed by Obi-wan.

The prequels are filled with betrayal, but the emotional impact of a lot of it is lessened by the fact that we as the audience know the end of the story and therefore see much of it coming, that we see it all from certain narrow perspectives, and that we don't have the same emotional investment in some of these betrayals that other characters do because the buildup to them has been so limited. finally we get a betrayal that's really shocking to us, and a lot of people don't like it. Well yeah, that's sort of the point. You're not supposed to like betrayal - that's why they call it betrayal. And you're not supposed to see it coming, either, otherwise it never gets the chance to be a real betrayal. If you're shocked and angry, then the story did what it's supposed to do.

 

Someone had to help her or something, she seemed a bit too good, even with just the dark side to smack Anakin around a bit, since he regularly fights Dooku and whatnot.

 

She was a Jedi Knight, just because Anakin is "the Chosen One" doesn't make him invincible. You know, and tension. Tension is good.

 

I just think there's more to it than that. I think that a lot of what you said is true, but I also think that they targeted Asoka specifically because of her bond to Anakin. Someone has been in Bariss's ear.

 

How are the Jedi suppose to stop a war when the other side wants to fight it?

Think Grievous wouldn't kill a Jedi if he/she refuses to fight? Palpatine and Dooku want this war and are going to manipulate things to get it. The Senate wants this war, because the see the CIS as traitors, plotting to take over. The Jedi serve the Senate, and see the CIS as allies of the Sith and trying to take over the galaxy. Why shouldn't they fight to protect the Republic. You are using hindsight. The Jedi don't know what we the audience knows. And if Jedi shouldn't be fighting wars, do you say the same about Luke and him fighting and killing for the Rebellion.

Also, the Senate gives Palpatine all his political power. Don't blame the Jedi for things they can't control. And when the Jedi think Palpatine has become too powerful, and the Senate is not doing anything about it, they move against him. Which Palpatine then uses to justify Order 66.

 

I sincerely hope not since I think the story is much stronger if we got a Jedi deciding to do this stuff on their own accord. I never want to hear of Dooku and Sids having any direct involvement until after the fact. I really have a hard time imagining she would easily follow either one of them. Perhaps this is where Maul would come in with some pretty lies.

 

Seerow

I agree. It makes for a stronger story if Barriss is involved as a third party, subject neither to the Jedi nor the Sith. I would be disappointed if we find out in the future that Barriss was nothing more than a pawn in Sidious and/or Dooku's game. Of course, that does not bar her from joining them in the future if she is freed from prison or avoids execution.

 

Well, she was a pawn in Sidious' game. I doubt Sidious had a hand in her actions, but she did exactly what he wanted - caused rifts between Anakin and Ahsoka, and between the Council and the Senate.

Pretty much everyone is a pawn in Sidious' game, whatever they do seems to suit him.

 

Circular_Logic,

One way I could think of that Barriss could be made to join them in the future that I'd find ok would be if Maul approached her and broke her out. I don't think anyone would know Maul is under Sids thumb again. He could approach her, tell her some little white lies and pretend to be her friend or something. By proxy through him Palps could play Barriss in his cards and we could have Barriss believing she is still acting in protest of the Jedi and the Senate. Still a shade of gray.

 

Yeah, pretty much this. Even if the Jedi decided they weren't going to fight anymore, all Sidious has to do is order Grievous to lay waste to a few dozen planets and the Jedi Order would be forced back into the fight. In the book Labyrinth of Evil, Yoda reveals he's aware that someone (Sidious, the Jedi know Sidious exists but not that he's Palpatine) is manipulating the war so that neither side gains a clear decisive victory. But despite this the Jedi don't have much choice but to keep playing along until they get the opportunity expose Sidious and take him down.

 

Agree. We just have to hope she get's a chance to be that better "Jedi", either in a continuation of TCW, or at least in the EU.

The trick is keeping the continuity correct. I think as long as she is never seen or is in contact with anyone at the temple, then the story works out. A lot of folks have the fear "if she isn't dead it doesn't make sense in ROTS". I say if she died, she would at least been talked about in ROTS. I prefer the "leaving the order" story, but they can't let her be in episodes with Anakin and the rest of the temple. They have to truely believe she is GONE. This will make sense in ROTS.

The SW universe is a big place, and with all the drama and action in ROTS, the least of everyone's worries is "finding Ahsoka" since she left anyway. Thinking about it, it makes sense, they accepted her leaving, so there is no more reason "to pester her".

Either way Kal La Kai, I bet the Ahsoka's Fate thread will be going crazy over the next few months..

 

Bad writing is bad writing.

There was no need to set up Ahsoka. There was no reason to involve Leeta in the first place. Ventress wasn't killed because the writer didn't want her to die, but wanted to give Barriss the use Ventress's lightsabers for the fight with Anakin? And the trial part would have been skipped if Ahsoka told about Barriss in the beginning. The Jedi would have confronted Barriss before Ahsoka was sent to military tribunal.

And Barriss's speech didn't even make sense. Jedi are warmongers? Tell that to all to people and worlds the Jedi have help free and defend from the CIS. As I said back in the beginning of the arc, it seems more people would be defending the Jedi, instead of protesting them.

 

I agree. Which is why I am upset that they failed to convey this. Barriss' turn could have done just what you've stated. But that's not what we got. In four episodes where the betrayal was so obvious it wasn't shocking, when she's finally confronted, it's simply a ranting crazy. Her motives are glazed over and barely explained. Her abilities unexplained. How she did what she did also unexplained. If they were so hell bent on showing her betrayal, then perhaps they should have given it more attention. At least that would have justified destroying established backstory.

Once before I mentioned how O-Mer or Jinx could have filled the role if the goal was emotional impact. After seeing what we got from Barriss and her betrayal, I remain convinced that those two could have given us the same result.

The problem with Barriss being the betrayer is that we don't have much emotional resonance. She goes from perfect Barriss to Im'a Gonna Turnevil without much foreshadowing or explanation. Unless we count the blantant "SHE'S THE BAD GUY" shots that were evident in every episode. She disappeared after Brain Invaders and hasn't been seen until now. It would be like showing Quinlan Vos' false turn to the dark side by bringing him back and having him betray Obi-Wan. It's one thing if we'd seen Barriss with Ahsoka this season and had them interacting. It's another to suddenly bring her back just to make her the villain for the sake of plot.

Anyone who has watched Law and Order or seen Scooby Doo knew Barriss was the culprit by the time Ahsoka was in the jail cell with Letta. That's part of the problem. The betrayal WASN'T shocking. It was poorly written. And if you don't believe that, you only have to look in the threads for past episodes where just about everyone correctly called Barriss as the traitor from the beginning. When most of the audience can figure it out, then it's not a shock nor is it effective. It only becomes effective if you can then JUSTIFY that betrayal. The writers failed to provide such a justification and gave Barriss a villain of the week 'Scooby Doo' motive. She deserved better and so did we.

 

This, even if I don't exactly agree with it...

Even if one doesn't personally agree with this, it shouldn't be hard to appreciate that there are some people, even IU, who do. There's the exception of the hindsight about Palpatine's Dark Side agenda, of course. However, it's not unreasonable for a Jedi to believe that there is something fundamentally toxic and dysfunctional about the Clone Wars and - most crucially - that the end is not worthy of the means.

The Jedi Order may have their perfectly valid rationale for fighting the CIS. They're intent on defeating Dooku and the Sith. Similarly, the political Loyalists and Separatists have their own agendas, ideologies, values and belief systems, and their own rationales for fighting on opposite sides of the conflict. To them, the Clone Wars are a real conflict with a lot at stake.

Meanwhile, a certain Jedi Knight has her own rationale for believing that the Jedi Order is warmongering and reflexively violent, and that the Clone Wars are not just. Consider that Barriss even laid out in S2 days her apprehension about the Jedi Order's new role. She even quoted Mace Windu's old line about the Jedi being peacekeepers rather than soldiers. This was in contrast to Ahsoka's rote repetition of Anakin's militarism.

Interestingly, we see Barriss participate in two campaigns intended to forcibly drag planets and species who wanted to be part of the CIS back into the Republic. This could be justified from an anti-secessionist perspective and from one which doesn't acknowledge the legitimacy of the CIS, but this isn't the extent of all perspectives on secession politics.

Considering that Barriss would strongly take exception to both Dooku and Palpatine, both being leaders of the factions in the war she is so disgusted by, a Maul/Barriss partnership might actually be the way this could go in the future. Sidious' other use for Maul might very well be ****-stirring in the Jedi ranks.

If Barriss avoids execution, that is.

 

That's what being a peacekeeper is - figuring out how to do that. That's why it's not an easy job.

Pardon me, but you provide your own answer here. It's not just one side that wants this war, it's both of them - which is why you don't simply join one side and consider that to be "peacekeeping".

Also, again, it's the great fault of the Jedi in this era that they forget that their mission is not to serve the Senate or the Republic, but to serve the Force. To quote someone who learned that lesson the hard way: That is why they fail.

The Jedi themselves say that they're not supposed to be fighting wars - repeatedly.

Of course they can control it. They can say: "Chancellor, we refuse to fight this war for you".

Yes - when it was too late to do anything about it. It wasn't always too late.

Different situation. Apples and oranges.

 

I was satisfied with the arc as it was, though I understand how you'd like to see the story set up a bit more.

Then again, you may be being a bot unreasonable here. You know, they only had a limited amount of episodes this season, and they just had so much important, crucial, necessary stuff to include in this season that they simply couldn't have fit anything like that in anywhere.

 

This is fiction and fiction is often a bunch of really convenient events strung together that would seem one in a millions happening IRL.

Barriss needed to create a scapegoat to make the Jedi look terrible and to create a fallgirl so no one expects her, so Barriss chooses her close friend knowing she can manipulate her. She also knows she is the Padawan of the hero Anakin skywalker which would make Ahsoka's fall seem even more terrible from the PR stand point so she frames her.

I dunno, heroes who fight in a bloody war are mass murders except they are protected by their uniform. In Barriss's mine the Jedi have become like the living weapons of the Senate and the Military dispatched to bring death. See the Umbaran arc where it seems many Umbarans probably died locked up by Krell in that prison on the airbase. The Jedi are peace keepers who no longer keep the peace but perpetuate a war. That whats going on is a civil war and the point is about keeping the Republic whole is becoming a glossed over detail as it drags on and people just want to it stop and for life to go back to normal. Even a Jedi longs for what was apparently. I can see why people would get upset and protest.

IRL you cut power for a week in FL and people would start protesting royally no matter why it was out.

 

The way I see it, the yellow eye thing shows that he is worried to an extend by the effects Barriss words could have, because she is stating these true things that has a potential to awake the Jedi (and good willed people at this trial) who are completely numb at this point and indeed serving a system which is truthfully no longer a republic.
As perverse and manipulative as Sidious is, he surely knows a small spark can have big effects especially if underestimated. Even if the steps of his plans are well conceived there always remains a hit-or-miss factor, something one can't control, and that's basically what scare such a calculator and eventually brings him to his downfall. I'm sure in this unexpected situation he would prefer to throw some force lightning to silence her and hardly holds himself, but he must gamble on the chance that it won't resonate enough and thus that he could consider how to exploit it.




hey guys, on a more general note, I feel this arc, especially this episode, especially its end, was purely cinematic, I felt I had watched a movie not just a tv stuff... I don't know about you but with such quality I'm in no rush to see Episode 7, it will come in due time and there is so much to enjoy that I'm not really feeling I'm waiting

Keep TCW going please!

 

Its one more more reason to like Maul. So many possibilities for what to do with him from here. It doesn't seem like Barriss is real likely to team up with either Palp or Dooku directly.

 

What do you guys think about the Trivia in the official forum saying Barriss was 100% correct on the Jedi Order?

100%? Poppycock, IMHO. War criminals - all of them? Should be put on trial? 100%? Freaking 100% of them!? Hell no.

 

Somehow I think that Barriss' conversation with Ahsoka about the value of attachments in The Jedi Who Knew Too Much is actually her attempt to size Ahsoka up as either a potential partner or a really good fall guy. When Barriss poses the question to her, Ahsoka simply repeats the Jedi doctrine which Anakin taught her, leading to Barriss realising that Ahsoka is every bit the hardliner militarist Anakin has shaped her to be. So she decides to sacrifice her. It's cold and causes her to feel enormous guilt, but she has already lost one of her oldest friends to her schemes.

So like Anakin in ROTS, Barriss decides to keep on making blood sacrifices, in her case for a radical ideology she sincerely believes in. Letta, Ahsoka and a number of clones all fall victim to this. By the end of it, she has dipped into the Dark Side and knows it, hence her remark that the red lightsabres suit her.

Now that Maul is back, they might as well use him well, much like they did in the Mauldalore arc.

 

I can't tell you guys how much I wish we had some more FMA fans here. So many parallels with this arc. ;.;