TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.20 - The Wrong Jedi (Season Finale) - discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Seerow, Feb 27, 2013.

  1. phatdude1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2005
    star 4
    I didn't want to get sucked into the "Barriss debate", because I'm more vested in the future of Ahsoka, but I'll take a stab at it.

    I agree that Barriss is the weekest link in this story. For some reason I feel it works (even though it was poorly done). If we assume that this episode was designed around the end game of getting Ahsoka to leave the order (by wrongful accusal), the rest as just filler to support it.

    • *We needed a Jedi that was Ahsoka's friend that we already knew that doesn't appear in the final cut of ROTS.
      *I think TCW team specifically picked Barriss because of her EU ties, know it would cause this very uproar. Don't get me wrong I'm a EU Barriss fan, but I can roll with this.
      *We could have had a lesser known Jedi, but I don't think it would have the same impact. If this is what the TCW team was planing on all along, they should have created a friend for Ahsoka seasons ago and started planting the seed then.
      *Assuming you go off of Barriss' Medstar appearances, it only makes sense that she's getting tired of the war. Being a healer, it's probably disturbing to constantly see needless death and destruction. Assuming Barriss comes back to the Temple after the Medstar novels, the timelines match up (somewhat).
      *I would almost say Barriss "started losing her mind" because of the war, becoming more and more delusional about who is responsible for it. Thus "worked with someone" to procure the bombs.
      *As far as the fight with Anakin, I think she was fighting all out and Anakin was trying NOT to kill her. Remember bringing someone in alive is harder than killing them out right. Anakin needed her alive for the confession. Barriss was fighting for her life. So Anakin was fighting with a handicap, he had to subdue her. I also say that in her rage (and still delusional) she was fighting with passion (using emotions and not control) making her a little stronger. Remember, she force choked Letta, that is darksided.
      *As far as Ventress not detecting her, remember she "thought" she "sensed" Ahsoka coming back, saw that cat creature, then the next moment was jumped by Barriss.
      *Barriss beating Ahsoka, I say they are similar in skill. It was the luck of the draw she beat her. Also I still say there was a little darkside advantage to Barriss.

    That's my attempt to justify the Barriss story. Now here are the things that caused it to be a poor plot:

    The detention center seems like a fortress, neither Anakin or Ahsoka could get in or out. But somehow Barriss was able to get in, and close enough to force choke Letta. Also she was able to get in and out killing clones and planting everything for Ahsoka. Again, the only way she could do all this is help from the "inside". Remember this was a republic facility. Someone had to be working with Barriss, but then when she gave her "confession", she didn't incriminate anyone. Maybe in season 6 they might answer that. Barriss was not working alone, but with who, we don't know.

    If there is no season 6 then none of this matters. Basically they sacrificed Barriss and Ahsoka to end the series. Boo hoo (at least Ahsoka got a good send off and I hope to catch her in the EU). If there is a season 6, then they do have to answer these questions.
    KeltheDor likes this.
  2. BW2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2013
    star 2
    We need less discussion and moar fanstuff making. Come on people write your fanfictions, draw your pictures and show your love for TCW, so Disney will bring it back this Fall.
    InterestingLurker and earlchinna like this.
  3. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    I agree, there's got to be more than Offee involved here.
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  4. Seerow SWTV★Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    Looking back at the convo, I think Barriss was preaching to her. She is speaking with definite contempt and retroactively now that the arc has come full circle it sounds more like Barriss was actually mocking Ahsoka by complimenting her ability to control her emotions. I think that's because Barriss is planning to flat out use and manipulate Ahsoka from the start, which she seems to exceed in beautifully.

    Barriss picked Ahsoka because she thinks she knows her so well she can pull her strength and because she is going to use her master's hero status. That actually goes hand in hand with how I think Dooku found out Hondo had Ahsoka in captivity back in the Young Jedi arc. Her master is famous so Ashoka is relatively well know. It is a very cold move by Barriss and one she clearly feels guilt in her confession. Regret? Probably. She does miss and feel pain for the ones she hurts like that Tutso guy which makes her rushless but not completely heartless.

    The arc doesn't really give much focus on the issue of attachment, it centers around the corruption of the Jedi and the Jedi working for a corrupt senate. I don't think Barriss was seeking a partner in Ahsoka. Given the contempt with which Barriss speaks about the order when she starts wildly pointing fingers trying desperately to get someone to see what she sees. I don't think Barriss want any of the Jedi in her club house, not even Ahsoka. They are all fallen and all of them should be hung in her eyes.
    Last edited by Seerow, Mar 3, 2013
  5. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    I'll bite. I may be way off base, but perhaps she had another collaborator (from the Temple, or even a protestor, though the former is more likely) disguise themselves as a clone and hack all the security cameras and devices around Letta's cell and the hallways where the clone were attacked. If this collaborator was a Jedi who was also familiar with the facility, it would make some sense, and they would be able to cover her tracks by perhaps fooling the other clones. Who knows, they might have even killed more clones, justifying Tarkin's odd statement about Ahsoka cutting down more than three clones, including one by her prison cell.
  6. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    I agree that Barriss plans to use Ahsoka from the start, but it does seem like she's trying to draw her in to some extent. This is before Ahsoka kills any sliver of hope in Barriss' mind that she could be different to the other Jedi with her repetition of Anakin's teachings. Ironically, if Anakin were not so hypocritical about his control over emotions and his attachments, Ahsoka might have a "better" answer. That tone in Barriss' voice, coupled with her genuinely pained look when Ahsoka runs off, makes it seem like she has only now written off Ahsoka as a loss.

    Cold but not completely heartless.
    Last edited by QuangoFett, Mar 3, 2013
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  7. GunganSlayer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2013
    star 2
    ^This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    This entire arc has been so contrived, convoluted, and poorly written that it's been very difficult for me to even care about anything during the last episode. Why was Letta present at the temple protest? Why was she concerned about her husband? Why would she tell the Jedi Jackar Bowmani was her husband and why was she insistent on knowing about his health? She fed him nano-droids and he exploded, how could you even survive that? Why does Barriss even bother setting Ahsoka up? Where was Barriss when she force choked and killed Letta? You're telling me there was no camera footage at all of Barriss killing clones (in multiple rooms/hallways) at this "highly secure" facility? Why did Barriss keep Ventress' sabers? Where was Luminara Unduli (especially in the final episode)?

    There was no surprise or shock at Barriss being the attacker; the audience basically knew right from the start. The only shock I got at the end of the episode was just how disappointed I was with how Filoni and Crew handled Barriss' character. Removing the steamrolling aspects of the EU, this makes practically no sense at all for TCW character of Barriss. We even haven't even seen her in what, two years? They could have just as easily created a new, original character to serve as the attacker. It's almost as if they just specifically went out of their way to destroy an already established character. Why Barriss? She barely could handle herself against battle droids, and now suddenly is a near expect at duel wielding combat? Yeah, sure, she's Ahsoka friend. Is that suppose to add emotional weight to her betrayal? In theory it should, but there wasn't really any there. You could have put any other character in that role and the end result is the same. Ultimately, Barriss comes across as just a crazy bad guy and her handling in this arc is representative of just plain uninspired and lazy writing.

    Anyways.

    I had a hunch Ahsoka would be expelled from the Jedi Order, and it proved to be true. I'm interested to see what they have in store for her character. Those final shots of her and Anakin at the end of the episode were really great. I also love the unnecessary massive courtroom the Republic has. Part of the Empire's grandiose architecture.
    JackG and Yodaminch like this.
  8. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    My theory (which has hardly anything to do with brontosauruses):
    1) Barriss targeted Ahsoka because:
    a) she knew her, could predict her actions to some extent, so she could most easily/effectively exploit her,
    and/or
    b) she thought she could turn her friend into an ally, potentially breaking her out of prison before her execution.

    I'd say (a) is a lot less controversial than (b), regardless of her friendship, motives or intent.

    2) Palpatine/Tarkin/Dooku/agencies-unknown are behind the extremist terror plot (agent provocateurs with Sid's backing), they've infiltrated the legitimate anti-war movement, and are connected to:
    a) Barriss directly. She knew the identity of Mrs Bomb and had fed her information to set up Ahsoka. She knew the location of the nanodroid warehouse on 1315, which she had probably not set up herself.
    b) Ventress:
    i) directly. She knew the location of the warehouse on 1315, was in the right place at the right time to intercept Ahsoka. She led Ahsoka to the warehouse and was conspicuously not killed by Barriss. She may have been hired by these agent provocateurs.
    ii) indirectly. She may have been hired by the agent provocateurs but told and shown very little about the greater mission objectives, or may have simply been on Coruscant by coincidence. It's a small galaxy. The location of the weapons warehouse on 1315 may be common knowledge in the underworld.

    3) Barriss didn't kill Ventress because:
    a) she didn't want to. It would've been an unnecessary murder and/or a dishonourable killing. It's not the Bushido Jedi way.
    b) she felt she didn't need to; she could benefit more from Ventress living and taking the blame for all her future red lightsabre exploits.
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  9. Seerow SWTV★Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    Remember the line; "The evidence is clear. Things will never change." Seems clear foreshadowing as she looks down and thinks about her plan to use Ahsoka from the start. Things will never change also refers to her thoughts on the Jedi. I really don't think she had any plans to take Ahsoka on board. Barriss wasn't expecting much of an answer and in their exchange she 'hehs' and sounds to me more like she mocks Ahsoka's belief in he Jedi dogma. Whose to say if another answer would have changed anything. I got that pained look but I think Barriss feels it because she is about to sentence her friend to death and she thinks she'll never again see her like that. Cheerful, bright little Ahsoka who saved her life twice. Barriss is about to set off a chain reaction that she thinks is going to lead to her friend's long and painful road to death. There will be no turning back for Barriss after that. Not that one can really turn back from getting a woman to feed her husband explosives and bomb the Jedi Temple. Barriss preaches to Ahsoka and then mocks her because its all the same.
    Last edited by Seerow, Mar 3, 2013
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  10. CloneWarsRescored Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    I watched this episode again, and yet again I felt tears swelling in my eyes, and my gut reels in. My dad likes to watch some of the episodes and I could tell even he was sad and shocked because he's always liked the series. I've just gone onto the music thread and heard the score from the last scene and had to stop it after 30 seconds because it's that good and makes me feel sad. I was thirteen when I watched TCW Movie and now I'm nearly eighteen and I feel so connected with her. I'm now going to man up and pretend this never happened... till the next viewing.
  11. BW2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2013
    star 2
    you are a symphatic person.
    CloneWarsRescored likes this.
  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    All you people who are talking about "growing up with Ahsoka" are making me feel old.

    That is all.
  13. BW2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2013
    star 2
    Thats sound so evil and barbarian. And there are still people who claim Bariss is not like Krell? She is even worse than Krell.
  14. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    This overreacting will go away in time. :p
  15. BW2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2013
    star 2
    also symphatic.

    How old are you? "Do we have to end all our postingss with Ma´am" old?

    I am 32 years old but i feel like 20 - 25 maybe and look like 25-30
    Last edited by BW2, Mar 3, 2013
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    LOL, I don't know how old that is but I'm not there yet.

    I'm 41; pretty much the only time I ever feel it is when I make an 80s reference and get a blank stare (or the e-equivalent of a blank stare) or someone talks about seeing the prequels or TCW as a kid.
    07jonesj and BW2 like this.
  17. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    We don't know that Barriss fed Mrs. Bomb's husband the nanodroids, we don't know if Mrs. Bomb fed her husband the droids herself. I suspect there's another party involved that's a lot bigger than one PO'd Jedi.
    Last edited by V-2, Mar 3, 2013
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    I think there was a reference in the Lit forum to Barriss not being the lone Jedi on the grassy knoll.

    It will be interesting to see if they do anything further with this next season.
  19. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    These are questions which also limited my enjoyment of the arc. Bets are this whole saga won't be touched on again and these questions will go unanswered.
    Last edited by JackG, Mar 3, 2013
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  20. Kal La Kai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Well TCW fails to mention that she is a Jedi Knight, so that fact alone makes her a fair match for Anakin. Also, this is just my theory, but perhaps since she recently opened herself up to the dark side her powers are ripened and she is currently strong because she is a "fresh" dark force user, so to speak.

    But I will agree that I was a little bothered that Anakin didn't stomp all over her. I know he isn't invincible, but he is one of the best duelists in the Order. He did however literally overpower her when they reached the landing where the younglings were. But that could be because he wanted to end the battle quickly so no one got hurt, therefore he tapped into the dark side a little bit to defeat her.
    Last edited by Kal La Kai, Mar 3, 2013
  21. Seerow SWTV★Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    I agree this plot should be revisited in the future although I would kinda like for Sids and Dooku to never be named in having had a role in the plot.
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  22. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    I remain totally unconvinced that Barriss has turned to the dark side.

    Then again I have been wrong before.
    Last edited by V-2, Mar 3, 2013
  23. BW2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2013
    star 2

    i was in the kindergarten in the 80s. I was drinking chocolate and vanilla milk while you were dancing in the disco and have some alcoholic drinks maybe?

    LoL thats funny. Propably you would have beat me back than as a stupid first grader.
    Last edited by Seerow, Mar 3, 2013
  24. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    I would prefer it that she hasn't, but I think that this show won't really go that route.
  25. Kal La Kai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    You bring up another good point. I didn't realize that by putting Anakin and Ahsoka together again it risks throwing things off balance in ROTS. It does make more sense for them never to see each other again since she is never mentioned. Anakin has most likely put his memories of her behind him in ROTS.

    And oh my goodness, I didn't even know that thread existed until now, lol. I will have to pay it a visit. I'm a mix of emotions right now. I wouldn't call myself a die-hard Ahsoka fan. I'm straight up Anakin's fan all the way. But I really have enjoyed the Master/Padawan relationship they had and seeing them separated is very sad. It's good to have split them up in a bittersweet way, since everything Anakin has gone through has culminated into him turning.