Full Series The Clone Wars - 5.20 - The Wrong Jedi (Season Finale) - discussion thread

Why would - why should - Barriss feel regret if she truly believed that what she did was the right thing?

 

Because she wasn't doing the right thing.

Plenty of evil men in the real world committed evil in the belief of doing the right thing. Though it would have been better if these evil men showed regret for their actions, because true remorse can possibly lead to a change to be good.

So Barriss feeling remorse creates the chance of her possibly becoming good again.

 

True, but why would you want to choke someone? It's because you want to cut off their air supply, which would kill them. Or, as Anakin did to Ventress, you want threaten and intimidate a person by making them think that you are going to kill them in order to get what you want.

 

Because she regrets that innocent people died and got hurt because of her choices.

 

All I know is that the Imperial March plays 90% of the time a Force Choke occurs. I think they're trying to tell us something about the nature of Force Choke, guys!

 

Exactly, if your using deadly force and a brutal means to apply that deadly force its probably an act with intention to cause intimidation through torturous pain or death. I don't think I've seen Anakin use Force Choke for anything but to torture info from someone.

 

Well in those cases mentioned above, force choking was obviously being used for wrong, but hypothetically speaking it could be used in a manner that is good.

Example:

An evil man is about to murder an innocent, so some guy begins to force choke him, not to kill him, but to temporarily take his focus off of the innocent that he was about to kill and instead grasp his own neck.

 

Well in those cases mentioned above, force choking was obviously being used for wrong, but hypothetically speaking it could be used in a manner that is good.

Example:

An evil man is about to murder an innocent with a gun, so some guy begins to force choke him, not to kill him, but to temporarily take his focus off of the innocent that he was about to kill and instead grasp his own neck.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post/repeat, having lag issues here.

 

What was it you were saying about this scene again?



It does back up your point, to an extent. Anakin is causing her torturous pain to get the edge in the fight.

Sure she does. That doesn't mean she thinks it wasn't worth it.

 

Isn't there a heavy likelihood that the man would pull the trigger as that happened.

Anyway, the intentions are irrelevant IMO. Anakin used force choke on Poggle for a good reason - to save Ahsoka, and it did save Ahsoka.

 

Again, whether she was or wasn't doing the right thing depends greatly on your own point of view. You're acting as if there's some unquestionable, universally-accepted, objective measure somewhere that these things can be held up against, and that if only people who did things that they were convinced are right but you are convinced are wrong held their actions up against that measure, the error of their ways would be obvious, making regret for their actions the only path to redemption. But the universe just isn't that simple - not our world, and not in the GFFA.

If I looked into your belief system, I'm sure I could find a ton of things that you believe are right, good, and necessary, but that someone else is convinced are evil and wrong. I could find heroes of yours who are villains to them. I could find myths you believe in that they find to be utter nonsense. I could find things that inspire you that they find to be offensive or outrageous. I could find things that you would fight for that they would fight against. That doesn't make them, or you, evil.

Remember who it is who deals in absolutes.

 

You mean when I said Anakin used force choke for five seconds to quickly end the fight and tossed her into a wall and some thorn bushes? You want to tell me that Barriss doesn't look terrified there? The force choke is always used by Anakin to terrorize opponents into giving info or submitting. There is no doubt in my mind Force Choke is a darkside power. However I'm never convinced Anakin knows that and as such he can use it kinda heroicly before Petrol tries to involve himself and stuff really blows the hell up.

 

Innocent? Again, the Jedi Temple was effectively a military base during a war, and the people inside it were soldiers or support personnel. The Temple and the people inside it were totally legitimate targets during wartime. Just because they're the designated "good guys" doesn't change that fact.

As for Letta, she blew up her own husband. Ahsoka was another soldier, as were the clones Barriss cut up at the prison. Ventress was a wanted war criminal. Not so "innocent".

 

Again, Luke used it.

 

Luke was skirting the dark side in ROTJ.

 

Was he? What is your evidence for that?

 

Yes, it backs up your point to an extent.

Anakin thus dips into the "darkness" when he sacrifices Barriss' temporal hormonal balance and the integrity of her trachea in the immediate term, primarily to prevent her from hypothetically killing Katooni and Gungi (screw Petrol) in the slightly longer term.

So he engages in the same moral calculus as a certain other Jedi Knight, only on a lesser scale.

 

So, good or evil are simply points of view, nothing else?

 

I agree. Much of the EU is devoted to Luke attempting to define the lines between Light and Dark. At this point in the story he only knows that he can do these things, he is yet to discover that he shouldn't.

 

I think you just brained my damage. Congrats Q.

Still a darkside power used primarily to torture and kill by Anakin. Hell, says something that the choke is his go to in order to quickly end the fight. What about a just force push? Or tossing an item at her feet and putting Barriss on the ground.

And wait, I only want Petrol to get his ass kicked, not die.

 

My evidence?!? That was kind of what the whole film was about, especially when taken into context of the whole saga?

Luke is dressed all in black, walks into Jabba's Palace and Force Chokes the guards. I believe the commentary on the Blu-Ray goes into that scene. Then obviously the final conflict is Sidious trying to turn Luke to the dark side, and Luke begins to wail on Vader, obviously channeling all his aggression, channeling the dark side.

Decades later, ROTS was made and contained a direct parallel of this scene - the one in which Anakin disarms Mace Windu, and joins Sidious. Whereas Anakin does join Sidious, Luke eventually makes the opposite choice, and triumphs. That's the best thing about ROTJ in the context of the saga IMO - having that symmetry and seeing Luke overcome the dark side, learning from his father's mistakes.

 

"Never give up hope, no matter how dark things seem". I'm sorry, I gave up hope around the time I realized Henry Gilroy wasn't coming back.

Sorry, why does Ahsoka need to be expelled from the order to stand trial for the military? It's already a military affair with the dead clones, why is this needed? Also, if that's the case, how come Krell was put down immediately by the 501st, rather than taking him back to the Jedi Council for their so called "internal tribunal"? Gonna answer that one episode?

WHAT EVIDENCE!? WHAT GODDAMN EVIDENCE IS THERE THAT AHSOKA BOMBED THE TEMPLE? She was off planet, in the Colonies region, on assignment when the bomb when off you bloody idiots. The only "evidence" against Ahsoka is of her choking Letta in a holding cell that conveniently had the audio system cut. And nobody in the Military Police OR the Jedi bothered to look into that glaring problem? How stupid are you people?

In possession of nano droid explosives. Right, being found in a warehouse full of nanodroids is automatic proof. Nevermind the telling wreckage that indicated a huge fight had just occurred moments before she was captured by Wolfe. Again, nobody bothers to look for things out of place. What about lightsaber score marks, or the damn explosion last episode? Are they seriously just going to overlook all this in order to push how "guilty" Ahsoka is? It makes the Jedi Conucil look like a bunch of flipping morons, with the MPs being no better.

Of course Anakin doesn't know what to do. With the track record for the Jedi in this episode already in the negatives, he's just par for the course.

Now they're ripping off Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country with this court scene. Stay derivative Clone Wars.

Yeah, somehow Ahsoka claiming she would never take the lives of innocents reminds me of when she almost killed an italian fish man under false pretenses for allegedly stealing her lightsaber. Also, didn't Tarkin say he wanted a military tribunal rather than a Jedi one? If so, then why the hell are the Jedi going ahead and making their own court hearing beforehand anyways?

Again with Letta. Nobody bothers to check that the audio has been cut.

Holy crap, someone is making sense for a change. And it's ANAKIN!? Anakin is the one who knows this whole thing is a load of BS. Refreshing for a change.

And any and all sympathy for the Jedi is now gone. **** you idiots. You have circumstantial evidence at best and nothing to back up your statements because neither you nor the military police did any actual investigations. But what am I expecting, logic from a show that is trying to convince me a Jedi can mastermind a bombing from lightyears away?

I will give this episode one credit. The military prison complex is an awesome looking set. That's all I'll say about it.

How exactly is a senator the equivalent of a legal attorney? Oh right, because we need to shoehorn in Padme here somewhere. This episode just gets worse and worse. First it makes no goddamn sense, and now you're forcing Catherine Taber on me again. Just had to be Padme hadn't it? Actually, that makes perfect sense. If you want someone to go along with baseless accusations and circular logic, Padme is the perfect choice. If it was Chuchi or an actual lawyer they might have pointed out all the enormous plotholes in this entire ****ing arc.

And now Ahsoka is doing my job and pointing out the plotholes! How the **** could the clones have not noticed evidence of a battle at the warehouse? Absolutely nothing at all? Jesus christ this is stupid. And now Anakin is remaining the most competent person in the script and not letting a little thing like the blatant contradictions at play get in the way of the truth. I can't believe it but I actually like his character for a change. He's not in screwhead territory like every other person.

Curses! Who would have thought that metal guard rails were useless against a lightsaber? Just about any sane person, you would think.

Now why is the Supreme Chancellor overseeing a military tribunal? I know he's the ultimate authority figure of the military and the republic, but you don't see Obama passing judgment on terrorists, or General Eisenhower overseeing the charges against deserters. Usually you have somebody qualified in the school of law to do these sorts of things. But TCW has shown us that Coruscant's law enforcement and Military Police units are woefully incompetent anyways, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that nobody short of the goddamn Supreme Chancellor would oversee a hearing. It's not like he's busy running the government now is he?

Ventress raises a good point. It's not easy for people to sneak up on her. She saw Anakin coming from a mile away here. But Barriss somehow gets the drop on her? Who the hell has Barriss been taking stealth classes from, the Invisible Man? Also, if Ahsoka already told Anakin about Ventress, why the hell did she not mention contacting Barriss as well? So far Anakin has been the only person doing any proper investigation for her, why would she keep that from him? Oh right, so that we could have this hackneyed trial going on. This episode could have been over in five minutes if Ahsoka had just told Anakin what Ventress is telling him here.

Yes, that's right, throw out the evidence because Ahsoka was seen with Ventress. Of course, everything Padme just said is null because of circumstantial evidence. Again. This kangaroo court nonsense is getting on my nerves, if you can't tell.

And Barriss falls into the lame ass "because I'm evil" schtick like a glove. That's right, keep the evidence that indites you in your quarters and attack the first person who comes questioning you. Never mind that it might be your friend's master, who just happens to be THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI IN HISTORY. No, you can take him, rather than doing the smart thing and throwing the lightsabers into a melting pot somewhere. But that would be smart, and in a plot this contrived, we can't have that!

Palps manages to do the only subtle thing this episode with his comments on Separatist plots. Its funny because he's behind them, see? In all honesty, it makes sense for him to go along with this sham, since he obviously wants Ahsoka dead so he can better mold Anakin into his new apprentice.

Yep, the only thing the Council believes is violence. Which is why they stripped Ahsoka of her rank and offered her up for trial rather than just executing her. Go on Barriss, your logic is undeniable. Undeniably flawed and broken, that is.

That kid is just like "It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's Dave Filoni's amateur writing staff abomination!"


The Jedi are not responsible for the war. The war was inevitable even if Yoda hadn't gone to Geonosis. Dooku and Sidious were instigating the process, Yoda was merely reacting.

The only villain I see here is Dave Filoni. Barriss what have they done to you?

So you want to be put on trial, Barriss? Sure, why not? Just confess that you can't in good faith follow the Order if they conflict with your retarded beliefs. You didn't have to murder your friends, bomb the temple and frame Ahsoka to do so! You fully justify the Jedi you are vilifying by choosing violence as your response to their "violence."

And so, Barriss Offee follows the Pong Krell tradition of "insult the viewer's intelligence for the sake of drama". God damn it.

I said this back when we first had suspicions that Tim Curry was going to be Abercrombie's replacement, but he is just awful for the role. I half expect Rendon Howe to come along and burn down House Cousland. The other half is doctor Frank N. Furter doing the Time Warp.

Look at Mace Windu trying to spin doctor this turd. "No, see, humiliating you in front of the entire Republic was your great trial! It totally wasn't because we are a bunch of braindead incompetent ****nobs who couldn't figure our way out of a paper bag! You are like, so much better as a Jedi now that you came through this demeaning, and totally irrelevant trial!"

I'm with Ahsoka on this one. It's a win win. Ahsoka leaves the order (hopefully to become one of those "wait 3 seasons to see me again!" characters), and Anakin finally is in a better position for Palpatine's machinations. I can't blame her for leaving. This whole arc was bull**** to the nth degree. If the Jedi are this stupid, leaving seems like the right choice.

Hey look, they managed to animate liquid without it looking awful. That's about all I can say. Sure, it was heartfelt and genuine between the two, but it all rings hollow after all the **** I had to go through to actually see it.

Dave Filoni, Charles Murray, all of you morons. **** you. **** you so very much. This, this was just insulting to sit through. In a single stroke, you utterly destroy the character of Barriss Offee and turn the Jedi Council into irredeemable morons. You stomp all over stories that have come before without any regard for the implications "because you can", and then act all smug about what a great contribution to Star Wars you are making. Get bent, go to writing school, and get ****ed you idiots.

I didn't think it was ever going to top Brothers/Revenge for the worst season finale, but this is easily one of the worst sits I've ever had with The Clone Wars. Even worse than Corruption, even worse than Shadow Warrior. Those at least weren't trying to be good. This is trying to convince me to be sad at how "tragic" the events that are unfolding are, but all I feel is contempt. I hope Disney ****cans this show and we leave it here. There's nothing else you can do that won't poison what you touch.

 

That does demonstrate that the hero of the episode is not very far removed from the villain in how he's so willing to make blood sacrifices in the short term for a long term goal.

 

Jedi/Sith should watch more of Sylar to learn how to properly use the Force.

 

This could get very, very off-topic, as well as very, very deep and potentially very, very nasty.

I will simply confine my comments to the idea that I personally do believe in an objective standard of good and evil, and in a specific, infallible source of it, which I spent an hour or so this lovely Sunday morning hearing all about.

Absent that source, however, I have seen nothing that would convince me that an objective good or evil could be proven with any degree of certainty. Smart, wise, humane men have made strong arguments in favor of things you or I would find morally repugnant, have have implemented policies that we would find oppressive, and fought for causes we would take up arms against. They weren't fools or sadists - they were rational, worldly, educated people who genuinely wanted to make the world better.

Anyhow, maybe it's better we leave this particular line of discussion at that.