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TCW Episode The Clone Wars - 5.20 - The Wrong Jedi (Season Finale) - discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Seerow, Feb 27, 2013.

  1. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 5

    Dec 10, 2012
    Right, but Circular Logic admits that Barriss provides an explanation for her actions in the court, and we've been over why you can't expect the spoonfeeding that some demand due to the basic rules of a detective story. We've been over how little character development was possible in a show with such a large cast of characters and we've been over the clues and subtle signposts for Barriss's character arc (after EVIDENCE was demanded, before use of evidence was criticised for being unfair in civil discussion)... So it becomes a discussion on how much explanation is enough for each viewer (and perhaps why), and possibly an argument over the interpretation of non verbal communication in the animation.

    Regarding the effectiveness of the whodunnit in terms of possible suspects, remember this is a child-friendly family show in the shadow of the PT. Lucas stated he aimed to write the PT as if Palpatine's identity was to be a surprise - but it's not really possible to view it like that. There was a serious lack of Sith Lord candidates in the principle cast of those movies. I don't think it's fair to judge the spinoff cartoon by a higher writing standard - especially given the low standard of EU writing.

    I think that for those who find satisfaction in the kind of exposition-heavy, predictable and uneventful stories that the EU provides, TCW itself may be a cause of much stress and anxiety (see previous comments on the larger TCW retcons)... The level of explanation for Barriss's character development was perfectly adequate for me - positively thrilling, in fact - but I understand that some people see it as some sort of betrayal of fandom itself. I mean, some people are calling out Filoni's jocular comments about upset fans as evidence of bad writing. How do you begin to converse with someone in that mindset? My inner sensible person is urging me to back away slowly.

    Anyway, I can agree TCW writing wasn't perfect. It's a shame that TCW didn't maintain the kind of narrative density and plot momentum that was present for series 5 from the beginning. There was a lot of filler, too many Republic-centric stories, not enough experimentation or risk taking. Too much compliance. S5 breathed new life into the format IMO. It's a damned shame that the series got pulled - and I wonder what future Barriss and the anti-war militants may have had in the show. Perhaps a buttload of exposition and flashbacks to satisfy those most upset by change, who knows..?
  2. Jedi_Kenobi32

    Jedi_Kenobi32 Jedi Master star 4

    Jul 24, 2005
    Just thought I jump in and give my .02 regarding this discussion.

    Now I liked the Fugitive arc. It's not my favorite arc (Umbara wins that prize) but it is certainly up there. Personally I thought the Fugitive arc's strongest points were the voice acting, the music, and the visuals/animation. Second, as Circular Logic mentioned the arc concluded Ahsoka's story in a satisfying manner.

    Now with that being stated, the arc's writing was lazy in some areas, particularly with how Barriss was used. I've mentioned how I wished the TCW writers would have expanded upon Ahsoka and Barriss's friendship in previous episodes in order to make the latter's betrayal more emotional. Unfortunately we didn't get that.

    With that being said though the way Barriss was used was the only thing that I disliked about this arc. Okay, I'll also admit that I wished that they could have shown more of Ahsoka's "trial" in The Wrong Jedi. But hey there's only so much that can be shown in a 22 minute long episode.
    Circular Logic likes this.
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    If you want to agree to disagree, that's cool. But the implications around the idea that people want to be "spoonfed" aren't.

    See my above point. Wanting enough character development to actually care about the character is not wanting to be "spoonfed," nor does character development equal a "predictable and uneventful" story.

    And Barriss being the bomber became pretty damn predictable and uneventful once Filoni flat-out announced it.

    I'm still conversing with you because you seem cool in the Doctor Who thread so I don't know why you insist on adopting the "my opinion is better than yours" attitude here.

    Filoni's comments about upset fans were condescending and indicative of the fact that he didn't give a flying **** what many of us thought. Bad writing had nothing to do with it. The entire arc seemed pulled out of someone's ass at the last minute with Extreme Shock and the survival of Ahsoka being more important than an actual story, and that's bad writing, but not Filoni's comments.

    And Barriss' level of character development was not a "betrayal of the fandom," it was inadequate for me to care that she was the bomber.

    If we're going to be discussing "good detective stories"--a really good one has suspense. This farce of a "detective story" didn't. Ahsoka had been so poorly written for three seasons that I couldn't give a **** about her "betrayal" beyond how upset Anakin was, and I didn't care about Barriss because I hadn't seen her since season 2. The only characters I cared about were Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ventress and I knew none of them bombed the Temple, so why was I supposed to care who did?

    Not being invested in the outcome ruins a lot of the suspense, and that's where character development comes in. And if character development is possible in a 120-minute movie, it is certainly possible in a television show that includes approximately 2400 minutes. Even if the show covers ten times the number of characters.

    It's too late for exposition and flashbacks.

    I personally found season 5 so horrible that I'm not even buying the DVDs, but again, difference of opinion.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  4. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 13, 2007
    I agree with Circular Logic and possibly take it a little farther. In short, I thought the majority of this episode (and arc) was a mess... especially the Barriss-as-bomber storyline. But somehow, despite that fact and despite the fact that I never really liked Ahsoka very much anyway, I thought it was indeed a satisfying end to her story arc. Those closing scenes of her and Anakin and the music playing as she walks away into the sunset (away from the order and away from Anakin) were quite effective, IMO. Even if I had liked her more, I'm not sure I would have wanted to see her again on the show (if the show had kept going) after that ending.
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    I remember a lot of comments about how if she had been killed, Anakin would have mentioned her in ROTS.


    My opinion on her exit is probably clear to everyone by now. But if she does appear again, there are ways to redeem her character, i.e. pretty much any way other than making her some sort of Wise Sage Jedi.

    That said, as far as I'm concerned, her fate can be left to fan fiction.
  6. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 13, 2007
    Yeah, and I definitely don't want to see her in Rebels.
  7. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 5

    Dec 10, 2012
    WARNING: Probable bad quoting errors and TL;DR ahead....
    You don't mean... ..Hot implications?

    But if you don't care about the character, then why are we arguing over her treatment? And if you don't want to be spoiled why would you read spoilers?

    Also, I don't recall mentioning character development in the paragraph you're replying to. To make myself clear, I was saying that people who like EU books and gain satisfaction from that convoluted, sluggish, hack written mess probably have some sort of allergic reaction to TCW's continuity tinkering.

    That said, if TCW failed to engage you on the basis of limited character development, then one must assume you have a really good reason prepared for engaging in such heated discussions about it. :p

    I wouldn't make that claim myself, so it's nice of you to make it for me.

    I suppose the DW thread is nicer because, for the most part, everyone is there to celebrate a show they all love. This contrasts starkly with Doctor Who forums, where everyone either acts as if it's the worst thing ever or takes massive offence to slight differences of opinion...

    ...I wonder if their Star Wars threads are full of people being lovely to each other...

    Careful while citing your opinion as a matter of fact, it can generate quite a lot of neurotic complaints on the internet. :p

    As showrunner, he's got to write for the masses, not the fanatics. I'd say ignoring the demands of the more precious/needy fans is a wise move in a franchise like SW. As is quite obvious from reading these subforums, the fans will watch even if they passionately despise everything about the show. They'll probably even buy the merchandise. Pandering to fans risks diminishing returns.

    I don't feel offended by his comments and I don't think you should either. I'd go one further - if someone chooses to take offence to those sort of statements, they truly deserve to feel offended.

    If he truly didn't give a **** then he'd not have even mentioned it.

    I wish I could write with half as much passion about subjects I don't care for. I'd have done much better in school.

    YES! This is the reason I gave for why Barriss's involvement wasn't signposted too blatantly.
    Damn! I didn't realise it was all being written just for you! I understand how badly the project failed now!

    In all seriousness, you weren't supposed to care. Fans of the show were.

    I think I see where you're coming from, but we both know the series wasn't planned to end at the point in which it did. It seems a little unfair to criticise the series for failing to predict it's own demise. Anyway, I was interested in the outcome. A lot of people were.

    Hence "may have had".

    Oh I found the best ever. But then I loved the D-Squad arc, which most internet people clearly didn't. I found the previous seasons a lot colder and unambitious. S4 raised the bar, mind you.
  8. Togruta

    Togruta Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 30, 2010
    Yeah it was random to bring Barriss back after three seasons of neglect-- but I do think it's a better choice than if the bomber was some new character we would have zero reaction to. At least there is connection and history with Barriss, though not so much that her betrayal is devastating enough for the audience to take it as the reason Ahsoka leaves.
    Dark Lord Tarkas likes this.
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    V-2, let me see if I can sum this up:

    1. People who disliked this arc are not entitled to post an opinion because the arc was only written for people who like the arc.

    2. People who disliked this arc must have hated the entire show, in spite of the fact that the show did very well with character development in earlier seasons, especially where Anakin and Obi-Wan were concerned.

    3. Nobody had a reason to dislike this arc must be EU fans who wanted Barriss to appear as she did in MedStar, even if they haven't read MedStar.

    4. Dave Filoni is a god. Anyone who is offended by his fan-trolling comments deserves it, because again, nobody is entitled to any opinion on his work other than a positive one.

    Got it.

    It is possible to "be lovely to each other" even when people don't have all positive opinions, all the time, regarding a particular episode of the show or a particular movie. I've got friends here with whom I disagree passionately on aspects of the fandom but I still find them to be awesome people.

    But it involves not assuming that anyone who disagrees with you has some sinister ulterior motive for not being "positive," or otherwise deserves condescension.


    My choice would have been that they plan the entire bombing arc a couple of seasons in advance and introduce the bomber then, without making it obvious that the person is psycho. But keep showing the person and building up his or her friendship with Ahsoka.
    JayTee_Erricck likes this.
  10. Darth_Zandalor

    Darth_Zandalor Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 2, 2009
    Ooh, are we bringing up EU bashing again? Yep, people who enjoy reading books are apparently incapable of liking TCW now, and any criticisms are just because we like to read books as well.

  11. hlc88

    hlc88 Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 3, 2012
    anakinfansince1983 I'll point that the bombing arc would have been conceived during the airing of Season 3 so it was planned in advance. They didn't just conceive it once Season 5 had started airing. The bomber was introduced a couple of seasons in advance and it wasn't obvious that Barriss would become what she did but there were hints to it: it was there. All of those stipulations were met.

    The only one for you that didn't was Barriss and Ahsoka building up a friendship. That would have been far too obvious.
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    hlc88 : You're saying that the writers had the bombing arc in mind when they wrote Brain Invaders? I've never heard that, and I assumed that at the time, Lucas still planned to have Ahsoka killed off.

    Not arguing that point, I'm just seeing if you have some behind-the-scenes info that I missed.

    As far as the friendship, there have been far too many debates on here about how much friendship was enough to show and from my end, I didn't even know they were still friends since we hadn't seen or heard from Barriss in years. Not that people can't reconnect after an absence but that angle was left out too. I wasn't feeling the "friendship" and therefore the whole "betrayal" angle was lost on me too.

    Some people thought the conversation in Brain Invaders was enough, to me it wasn't, I don't think there's a consensus to be reached there.

    I don't think establishing the friendship better would have ruined the mystery any more than it was already ruined by To Catch a Jedi though. The first episode with the nano droids and Ahsoka and Anakin in the slums was the only one with any mystery, and I remember rating that episode fairly high.
  13. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 13, 2007
    Ahsoka and Barriss were just friends on Facebook.
  14. hlc88

    hlc88 Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 3, 2012
    anakinfansince1983 No, they wouldn't have had the bombing arc in mind during Brain Invaders. It was during Series 3 they would have probably thought of it and started production on it. That's going by how far ahead production wise they usually were... That is an assumption on my part that ideas for Season 5 would have been being worked on during the time Season 3 was airing. Sorry, I didn't word that correctly!

    Fair enough, some things work for others and some things don't. I liked what they did but I can respect your point of view to not like that part of how they handled their friendship.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  15. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 5

    Dec 10, 2012
    You've seriously misunderstood (or more likely misrepresented) what I've taken great care to reiterate 2 or 3 times. I love reading. I love good writing.

    Reading back over what I've said, I don't think I could have been much clearer. I apologise if it's my failure to communicate such a simple ****ing idea. :p

    And anakinfansince1983 - I think you've misrepresented (or more likely misunderstood) what I've been saying. To address your points might seem like I'm conceding that they're valid, but please read on with the understanding that I don't:

    1: You seem confused as to what I've actually said. I made no claims about who may or may not comment, but I see what you're trying to do. It's not attractive.
    2: I have made no such claim, you have failed to understand what I've written in direct reply to specific comments that you have made. Again, I see what you're trying to do. It's much easier to argue against outrageous things you can pretend I've said...
    3: This is a tricky sentence to decrypt and I don't want to respond to it because I don't understand what you're trying to say.
    4: I can't find a comment I've made which describes Filoni as a god. It's interesting that you're putting those particular words in my mouth. Once again, I feel I must reiterate the fact that I've never once claimed that people aren't entitled to an opinion.

    Everyone is entitled to say whatever the hell they like, you are entitled to your opinion of the things I say. You're even entitled to your opinion regarding the things you imagine I say. All opinions are not equally valid though, and those based in fantasy, based on false assumptions and misrepresentations, those are downright **** opinions that should have the chronic **** taken out of them.

    In my opinion.
  16. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 13, 2007
    OK, well let's just move on now, shall we? ;)
  17. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003
    As I've stated previously, her rant didn't do anything for me and I've never mentioned wanting to be"spoonfed". The instant I read Filoni's comments about this arc, I understood why the story was soo unsatisfying. They just wanted Tano off the show, to hell with everything else. "Too bad if you don't like it and cool beans, if you do." Meh.

    When a character pulls a complete 180 over the course of three years off-screen, I expect more than a little development. Leaving the interpretation of a paradigm shift like that to the deciphering of facial ticks/smirks and eyebrow-raises was lazy storytelling.

    To reach any character's final destination, I'm not asking for breadcrumb trail...

    but I shouldn't have to hand-glide across a canyon either.

    Change doesn't bother me, but the lame planning and unimaginative writing of the final arc sure did.
    Then there's what Dave had to say and the fact that those words were not well-received.

    But hey, at least Ahsoka's gone.:p

    Perhaps there is something related to Barriss that will be revealed in the bonus content? If not, what's done is done...
    now that Skywalker is back to where ROTS requires him to be, I'm good.:)
  18. darth fluffy

    darth fluffy Jedi Knight star 2

    Dec 27, 2012
    So if you hate TCW so much, why are you even posting here then?
  19. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 13, 2007
    darth fluffy : She didn't say she hated TCW. Anyway, we are not playing the "get out" game here.
  20. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Soliloquist of SWTV star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Oct 16, 2008
    Hating stuff is the any SW fan's greatest strength. In 1983 we were united by our hatred of Ewoks. In 1999 we were united by our hatred of Jar Jar. In 2004 we were united by our hatred of Jedi Trial. In 2008 we were united by our hatred of Ahsoka, and now in 2013 we are united by our hatred of the potential of canon go boom.

    EDIT: Yeah, you're all too familiar with that line of conversation from the Ep 7 forum, aren't you, eht? ;)
    eht13 and V-2 like this.
  21. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 13, 2007
    Yeah... our hate has made us powerful... or something. :p
  22. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 5, 2011

    Yeah, it looks like the EU was a...

    red herring
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  23. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master star 5

    Apr 29, 2011

    P.S. I'd hardly call using the words evidence and proof in a debate going on a witch hunt...more like just a debate.
    The Shadow Emperor and V-2 like this.
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    I think the point was that using terms like "evidence" and "proof" is an indication that one can be "wrong", and when we're talking about an opinion of a TV show, there is no "wrong" opinion. Maybe it's not a "witch hunt" but the implication is that no one is allowed to dislike an episode unless he or she can present "evidence" or "proof" that disliking the episode is the "correct" opinion.

    Even if the terms weren't being used to tear down other people, I'd have an issue because it seems an attempt to move the forum to srs bsns , and if I want that sort of thing, I'll post on the Senate Floor.

    I thought hlc88 and I did pretty well earlier with "this worked for you but not for me--and that's cool." I didn't need her to present evidence to be allowed to disagree with me, nor did she need that from me, and I appreciated it.

    There is also the difference between asking why someone holds an opinion in order to understand it, and asking for "evidence" or "proof".
    darth fluffy and eht13 like this.
  25. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003
    Evidence? Proof?


    The only thing that matters is my opinion.[face_devil]