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TCW Episode The Clone Wars- Episode 106: Downfall of a Droid Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by The2ndQuest, Nov 5, 2008.

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  1. EHT New Films Manager -- on vacation

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    And being more docile than Jango Fett doesn't really mean all that docile. ;)

    Also meant to say in my earlier post that although I didn't like this episode as much, I do agree with others that the portrayal of Anakin here is good. While it's important to see him be one of the heroes of the Clone Wars as is alluded to later, it is also good to see facets of his character like we see here... where his attachment to someone (R2 in this case) makes him tend to lose his composure.

  2. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    We can use the Production Order #'s and the groupings of multi-episode stories (ala the Malevolence trilogy or the current Droid duo) to get an idea of the actual chronological order of events:

    1: MOVIE: Christophsis
    1a: MOVIE: Teth/Rotta the Hutt part 1 (possibly Production Order #12)
    1b: MOVIE: Tatooine/Rotta the Hutt part 2 (possibly Production Order #13)
    2: Downfall of a Droid (1 of 2)
    3: Duel of the Droids (2 of 2)
    4: Unknown (Speculation: Bombad Jedi ("Nute trilogy" part 1 of 3))
    5: Unknown (Speculation: Cloak of Darkness ("Nute trilogy" part 2 of 3))
    6: Unknown (Speculation: The Lair of General Grievous ("Nute trilogy" part 3 of 3))
    8: Ambush
    7: Rising Malevolence (part 1 of 3)
    9: Shadow of Malevolence (part 2 of 3)
    11: Destroy Malevolence (part 3 of 3)
    10: Unknown
    12: Unknown (possibly Teth/Rotta the Hutt part 1 of 2)
    13: Unknown (possibly Tatooine/Rotta the Hutt part 2 of 2)
    14: Rookies
  3. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

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    May 18, 2002
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    Quest - I'm pretty sure Tatooine was supposed to be first.

    I realize Christophsis is where Ahsoka was introduced in the film, but it wouldn't be too hard to change around her introduction scene, because all they'd really have to do is change location.

    It makes sense that they'd start off with something familiar like Jabba and Tatooine. Christophsis was probably originally just another "normal" 22 minute episode.
  4. Blackout Jedi Grand Master

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    [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_The_Clone_Wars:_Slaves_of_the_Republic_-_Chapter_1:_The_Mystery_of_Kiros]Clone Wars #1 - Slaves of the Republic[/link] ;)

    If we could have a CGI'd Britney as a Twilek dancer... I'd die a happy man.

    ...WHAT? Let me dream! [face_laugh]
  5. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    It strikes me as highly unlikely that's the case.

    First off, as far as I'm aware, they didn't make that many radical changes to the episodes when they turned it into a movie (which is why you have things like repeated exposition lines, etc), and you can't do the Christophsis episode without Ahsoka's introduction (at least not without rewriting the entire episode).

    Second, Tatooine cannot go before Teth (again, without a total rewrite) as the two episodes are directly linked- they rescue Rotta and escape off to Tatooine in one episode, and then arrive and deliver Rotta in the other.

    Third, the episode guide states that only one episode preceeded Downfall of a Droid, and since you cannot separate Teth and Tatooine, that only leaves Christophsis.

    (though I suppose we agree on one thing- Christophsis was originally a "normal" 22-min episode, but I'm saying it had to be the first 22-minute episode)


    When they decided to make the movie, they had to use Christophsis as a starting point and then decide what to use for the rest of the movie. They likely chose the Rotta duo because it gave them a good mix of lightsaber duels, ground battles, air battles and main characters that episodes like the mostly-space-based Malevolence trilogy didn't.

    And, so that it'd flow as a movie, they simply added some bridging material with Yularen or the Jedi via hologram and changed the opening narration to tie them all together.
  6. KennethMorgan Jedi Youngling

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    Sep 29, 2004
    star 2
    After watching this episode, I now figure that the reason in ANH that Artoo tried to hide from Ben at first wasn't that he didn't recognize the Jedi. It was probably more like this:

    BEN: Come here, my little friend. Don't be afraid.
    ARTOO: (thinking) Yeah, like I'm going to trust you, Mr. "It is easily replaced"!

    I must admit I was surprised that Kenobi would be so callous. Yes, as a Jedi, he has been trained to resist attachments, but he surely knew that Ani and Artoo were close friends. Yet he still expresses no sympathy for Ani's loss at all. Add this to Kenobi's brushing aside concerns over Shmi and questioning Padme's integrity in AOTC and you can understand why Ani would turn away from the Order. Actually, you really don't see Kenobi start to understand such things until ROTS, when he expresses sympathy for Padme and her situation.

    Getting back on topic, I was also surprised Ani accepted Ahsoka's opinion that Artoo wasn't on board so quickly. I was sure he was just playing along and would quickly take his fighter out and follow the ship. I'm very interested in seeing how this one plays out.
  7. Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master

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    Haha, my exact thought.
  8. WedgeWalker Jedi Youngling

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    Great analysis.
  9. WedgeWalker Jedi Youngling

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    I think its important to make a distinction here.

    The Jedi are encouraged to have compassion (which Anakin refers to as "unconditional love") for all living things. Thus they do have motivation to protect the galaxy.

    But what they are discouraged from having is unique attachments to individuals.

    So they must love the people of Naboo, for example. But they shouldn't go getting attached (and/or married) to a particular Naboo citizen.


    But at the end of the day, it doesn't appear that any of them really live that mantra fully. They all show signs of attachment.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

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    [face_plain]
  11. Tordelback Jedi Youngling

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    Ah, but did he? It's Threepio that's Ani's droid, Artoo is Padme's. If we are to follow the idea that the current TCW serial starts in the middle of the post-knighting montage from Vol 2 of the old cartoon, and the idea that Downfall of a Droid is one of the earliest episodes, then Padme has only just recently given Artoo to Anakin as a "graduation" gift. Prior to that their only contact would have been in TPM and briefly in AotC. My suspicion is that it's Anakin's attachment to Padme rather than Artoo that is manifesting itself here - he's lost his secret wife's favourite droid, his only link to her while he's jetting off around the Outer Rim. And Obi-Wan isn't supposed to know about that at all.
  12. LtSunber Jedi Youngling

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    Oct 3, 2008
    Great point. I never thought about that.

    BTW, are Trandoshans immune to mind control? I expected that Anakin would interrogate that scavenger.
  13. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I don't think Transdoshan's are naturally immune, no, though a particular individual one might be strong mindd enough to be resistent.


    Also- on the DVD for TCW movie, the season preview video includes the deleted scene from Downfall of a Droid with R2 and the Treadwell droid.


    Also, Garth, it appears you were partially right afterall- after some research it seems the Hutt story did come first, with it's other parts spread out in production out of order like the Malevolence trilgoy, and Christophsis was produced later as an intro to the movie. This would explain why the first teaser trailer for the series only has footage from Teth/Tatooine/Coruscant (and some Malevolence) and we don't see Christophsis footage until the theatrical trailer.
  14. WedgeWalker Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 15, 2008
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    About the whole Anakin and R2 thing...

    Good point Tordelback.


    I would add in, however, that their time together in TPM shouldn't be underestimated. Little Anakin seemed to do a great deal of bonding during their week or so together. So while much of his attachment to R2 in CW probably does come from the Padme connection, some of it probably is a straight up Anakin/R2 connection.
  15. Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Master

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    Aug 4, 2008
    star 4
    I agree...Anakin does have special bond with R2...
  16. Pabawan LFL Story Group

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    The timelessness of Star Wars is one of its great strengths.

    I dunno. Those who cite "timelessness" often, but not always, gloss over pop culture artifacts that predate when they were born. Disco Lapti Nek stands out to those born in the '70s or '80s, but the Benny Goodman riffing Modal Nodes or the clear Spaghetti Western influences of ANH don't.

    Oh, and I can't remember off-hand, but the production order of the Christophsis element was, I think, episode 18. The rest of the movie was episodes 1, 3, and 4, I think.

    ph
  17. Darth_William Jedi Master

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    May 4, 2002
    star 2
    Pabawan, Can you please address the official LF line on the production order vs. the Cartoon Network airing order of this series? Why are the episodes airing out of the order in which they were produced, causing inconsistencies like the one you cited earlier regarding the beginning of 'Downfall of a Droid' and how Grievous was last seen losing the war prior to this episode? Is the airing order a CN decision or a LF decision? Is it Lucas' or his company's intention that the show be aired in production order or in the order that we are currently seeing them represented on CN? Finally, since the production order/run order are clearly different, which order will we see presented in the eventual dvd of season 1 of the show?

    Thanks!
  18. Pabawan LFL Story Group

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    Hey DW, I don't know what ultimately determines the order, but it sounds like there's enough interest to possibly see if there's a story there for the site. I suspect, though, there's no clear-cut answer: on one hand, little inconsistencies that crop up in the broadcast order exposes certain intentions in the production order; but on the other hand, the production order clearly can't be taken at face value since chapters within multi-part arcs were not always produced in immediate succession!

    But purely as a behind-the-scenes-type production angle, there may be an interesting story on why this series in particular is produced in the order that it is.

    ph
  19. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

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    Yeah, I'd love to get some official confirmation on this.

    And if the production schedule was (a) affected by the theatrical release (I mean beyond the combining of the Tatooine and Christophsis plotlines), and/or (b) affected by the negative critical reviews.
  20. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I don't think the critical reaction to the theatrical movie could have influenced the series, at least not this season. I mean, if Christophsis was produced as #18, that suggests the decision to turn the Hutt trilogy (+ revised Christophsis) into a movie didn't occur until somewhere in the mid-late teens in production. I would guess the decision to go theatrical didn't occur until late summer or early fall of 2007 (Lucas described the movie as an afterthought in an EW interview) . So you're looking at almost another year until the movie actually came out. So most of Season 1 was probably finished (or at leats far along in production) by time the reviews of TCW movie first started rolling in.



    Looking at the production pattern, it strikes me that they may have started multiple multi-episode storylines at the same time, and thus the concluding episodes to those arcs were finished after the initial episodes of other arcs.

    For example, if they worked on two episodes at a time:

    They start Teth-1 and Droid-1 at the same time, giving us #1 & #2 in production order, then that moves onto Teth-2 and Tatooine to finsih that arc, #3 & 4, then start Bombad Jedi while they finish the Droid duo, #5 & 6. Then they start the Malevolence arc as well as Ambush, #7 & 8, then come around to continuing Malevolence and starting the Nute duo, #9 # 10, then finish Malevolence and the Nute duo, #11 & 12, etc etc.

    It makes sense, though that may not be the exact case- I'm only speculating.

    Here's what we know so far:

    18: MOVIE: Christophsis
    1: MOVIE: Teth, part 1
    3: MOVIE: Teth, part 2
    4: MOVIE: Tatooine

    2: Downfall of a Droid
    6: Duel of the Droids

    5: Bombad Jedi
    8: Ambush
    7: Rising Malevolence
    9: Shadow of Malevolence
    11: Destroy Malevolence

    10: Cloak of Darkness
    12: Lair of Grievous

    13: Unknown
    14: Rookies

    (not sure yet if Bombad ties into Cloak and Lair yet, even though episode descriptions I've seen mention Nute being a part of all three- they are gonna air all three in a row though, so it'll be interesting to see if it fits better post-Malevolence where Cloak & Lair were made or immediately after Droids where Bombad was made)

    (this is fun- it's like a puzzle :D )
  21. JMM Author: The Forgotten War, SW Fact File

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    If you think those movies don't look like a product of the 70s and 80s, just check out everyone's hair. :)
  22. Robimus Jedi Grand Master

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    Loved this episode! So much stuff in it.

    Trandoshan Droid Trader, IG-86's, Goldie, Another Great Space battle, Clones going for another spacewalk....all great stuff.=D=

    Even better was the inclusion of a couple philisophical Star Wars points I always love to discuss.

    1. Droid Sentience: It's again made clear that Droids have personalities, that R2 is special no matter what Obi-Wan thinks of the situation. Droids are not all mindless machines, if any are, and I think that point has been re-enforced by this series.

    2. Jedi Attachment Rules: Obi-Wan's general callousness comes shining through again, showing his and the Jedi's devide with Anakin in general. Obi-Wan is far from the worst Jedi offender in my mind, but he must know his Padawan will not comply with his orders.

    I think it again shows in a subtle way how the entire Jedi Order would have been saved if they wouldn't have been so closed minded toward Anakin and his feelings. Maybe thats why I sympathize with Ahsoka and Anakin more than the rest of the Order.

    The brief glimses of Anakin's rage in the episode were very cool as well :)
  23. Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films

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    I love to read/debate some of those points as well, but regarding your point #1 - do those who don't spend a lot of time with their droids have the opportunity to see the personality that Anakin and we viewers do?

    In a strange way, it reminds of varying attitudes towards pets - from those who dress up their dogs and insist on treating them like their children (which I find strange, but harmless), those who KNOW their pets have a personality and attitude (me and my cat), and those who dismiss pets as - well animals, not family (and are they who I find clueless, but I'm still friends with them).

    Your point #2 brings up an oft-debated point - are the Jedi callous or do they "release" their feelings and appear callous to those who don't?

    As to Anakin's darker-side - I never liked movie-Anakin. Sorry, just didn't see enough of the "good man." Up to this episode I saw him - liked him - wished we had seen more of this Anakin in the movies. I easily would have bought this tragedy of this man being pushed and pulled and descending into darkness.

    In the movie, it was inevitable, I'm sorry to say. IMHO.

    Now we see flashes of the movie Anakin - we can see both the good and the intense - this dichotomy is - well - what I wanted to see.

    Now if they could just dress his padawan in non-teeny-bopper clothing and tone down her attitude, just a bit - she's not a knight, not a master, she's a new apprentice, for Force's sake.
  24. Robimus Jedi Grand Master

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    I love to read/debate some of those points as well, but regarding your point #1 - do those who don't spend a lot of time with their droids have the opportunity to see the personality that Anakin and we viewers do?

    The Jedi spend a lot of time with droids, counting the EU they have them all over the Jedi Temple and each Jedi with a Star Fighter seems to have his own assigned astromech. Comparing beings that can fly spacecraft, prepare meals and fight wars by themselves to pets is a bit of a stretch for me, sorry. :)

    Counting the EU we have tons of droids with lives all there own. From IG-88 to I-5 to R2 and C3PO. They may have once been just machines, but all the evidence seems to point to them having evolved at somepoint. Maybe every character/person doesn't realize the extent of it, but I bet the same thing could be said of slaves throughout human history.

    Your point #2 brings up an oft-debated point - are the Jedi callous or do they "release" their feelings and appear callous to those who don't?

    Qui-Gon didn't go to Tattooine to free slaves, in fact didn't seem to care that there were slaves there. Nobody in the Jedi Order seemed to even blink at the thought of using a Clone Army to fight the war. They are cold and calculating, because that how they need to be to serve the greater good. They are hard people, set in their ways, many of which I've always been at odds with.

    "Lets not tell Luke that Darth Vader is his father, Yoda. Thats not anything important"-Obi-Wan in a deleted scene imagined by Robimus:p


    Now we see flashes of the movie Anakin - we can see both the good and the intense - this dichotomy is - well - what I wanted to see.

    Now if they could just dress his padawan in non-teeny-bopper clothing and tone down her attitude, just a bit - she's not a knight, not a master, she's a new apprentice, for Force's sake.


    I totally agree on both points.

    I think the EU has expanded upon Anakin in a great way from the Comics to Novels to Animated series. The additions make Anakins fall so much more believable than just the films did alone. And I like his portrayal in this series the most of any medium thats appeared thus far.

    I'm also always worried Ahsoka is going to catch a cold in that tube top. And remember, she and the Clones are actually the same age........Is she just being flirty?:p
  25. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Re: droids, I think another to to factor into account is that droids like R2, I-5 & IG-88 may be the exceptions to the rule. IG-88 is a fluke of instant self-awareness, I-5 has been modified to remove inhibiting programs and components, and Artoo has apparently never had a memory wipe. The latter point may be more relevant to Obi-Wan's experience.

    Droids are supposed to have routine memory wipes to avoid quirks and glitches from arising (and, it seems, from too much independent personality from accumulating), and with Kenobi, almost all the droids he's regularly had contact with at the temple, on Coruscant, etc are likely given such routine maintainence, or are battle droids who all have pretty much the exact same personalities. He's never really had experience to suggest droids are anything other than a reliable and interactive device that can be replaced if lost.
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