Full Series The Clone Wars- Episode 110: Lair of Grievous Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Okay, I digress, but I gotta share. I LOVE the new origin to General Grievous. I am so glad that Lucas and Filoni fixed that first terrible origin of GG with this episode. I alsways hated the first origin because it made Grievous into a remote controlled patsy. It is a lame rip off of the 6 Million Dollar Man. You can tell from the commentary with Filoni how weak he thought that origin was and he seemed glad George wanted to fix it and I agree with him. Here's why...

#1. Having Dooku engineer a shuttle crash that only cripples Grievous makes no sense. What if it killed him on accident? How will he know it will only damage him enough so that he's almost killed? This idea was not well thought out, sorry, which ever writer came up with it. Didn't it appear in a Star Wars Insider article. Eeesh.

2. The first origin is too close to Vader. I always hear crap how most EU writer's don't have an original bone in their body and keep retreading the OT ideas -- this is a clear example. So very convenient to retread -- a disaster happening to Grievous which made it the only option to save his life was to put him in the armor. Same as Vader. Weak.

#3. Most importantly, having Grievous repaired \ improved takes away his freedom of choice. The new origin is far stronger dramatically, because Grievous is willing to destroy his own 'humanity' for power -- which is what the episode and his character is all about. The old stuff about his family past remains, but he chose to trade in his body for the power to dominate the Jedi. The first origin in the visual guide has a stupid picture of a computer chip in Grievous' head that Dooku supposedly uses to control him. How is that Star Wars? The control chip in the head idea is a Star Trek idea. It was DONE on Star Trek. It literally turns Grievous into a droid. AWFUL.

#4. Why did Grievous choose to make himself more powerful than a Jedi? This is where the new origin kicks ass. It isn't because he couldn't become a Jadi. It's because he isn't force sensitive, which means... He can't become a Sith! He works for Dooku and Sidious -- he knows they are Sith. He knows he can never be Dooku's apprentice, so he took matters into his own hands and went another route to get his power. This is genius! I chalk this up to why he's also short with Dooku. There is some serious resentment going on there that actually makes the relationship between GG and Dooku interesting. It also suggests some possible good stuff between GG and Ventress in the future. And guess what, there is no stupid remote control chip anywhere around.

Thanks for saving Grievous, Clone Wars guys!

 

Yeah...that was deliberate. It's been said many times that Grievous is the prototype and serves as a parallel to Vader.


I don't think they did anything positive for Grievous in this one. I rather say they killed him dead, resurrected him, and made him dance the Charleston for our amusement.

 

Just watched it again, I'd swear the burn mark just "appears" on one shot when he's with the doctor droid.

The dual sabers fight at the end was very cool, I love how Kit deactivates his saber and disappears into the mist.

And for all those complaining about the Jedi not using the Force against Grievous, Fisto clearly does a Force push that knocks Grievous to the ground.

On 2nd viewing:

(1) Nahdar was fine I think, we didn't need that much more time with him. This was one big checkmark for me, because I've enjoyed especially Dark Horse's SW:Republic's look at rogue Jedi who either (a) lose their way in fighting a war, or (b) leave the Order because they do not want to fight.

I hope we get to see Dooku trying to convince Jedi to join his side...

(2) Overall the episode did feel somewhat rushed;

(3) I didn't think Kit was callous about the loss of Nahdar, I just think he was focused on getting his butt out of there;

(4) Kit's escape from Grievous wasn't that bad; he was clearly intent on escaping even before he ran into Grievous for the second time, and Grievous + 4-5 Magna Guards was probably too much for him to handle.

Why he didn't use his Jedi fighter blasters on Grievous? Well, that employs something we like to call suspension of disbelief.

Overall, I thought the score worked well, and the animation just keeps on impressing me. I liked the somewhat monochromatic look of Grievous' lair, it really showed off the colours of Kit and Nahdar.

 

Overall I think this was my favorite episode yet. Though I did like the first episode with Yoda, I think this one surpasses it just a bit. I notice the animation is improving as time goes on, which is great.

I thought Fisto's voice fit him well; I was worried when I heard the Seth Green rumor that he'd come off as too goofy or happy-go-lucky. This fits him very well. I was glad to see his fighting style fleshed out a bit more, too. He really showed why he is a Jedi Master; calm and collected and very skilled with a lightsaber. However cool it looked, though, I don't like the idea of him using two lightsabers. I remember when we first say Anakin using two sabers in Episode II, I thought "Wow, awesome!" It was okay because Anakin was like a prodigy, so it fit. But now it seems like using two lightsabers is no big deal and everyone can do it. Then again, I suppose it isn't that big of deal when we have General Grievous jumping around with four.

Speaking of Grievous, I really enjoyed how he was nearly out-done by the Jedi in this episode. I also enjoyed his Dr. droid. On the topic of Grievous I have to ask...who said the "rigged ship crash, saved by Dooku, put into a droid body" was his official back story? Was it made his official back story? I won't pretend like I know a lot about Grievous because, honestly, I don't. He's not my favorite character but to my knowledge that story was done for the Visionaries graphic novel, a novel that is not canon. I could be mistaken, maybe it was made the legitimate back story somewhere down the line...but I thought it was still a mystery; all that we knew for sure is that he was once a great warrior but is now encased in a cyborg suit, ala Vader.

Overall, great episode. I look forward to more Fisto in the future. And that preview was outstanding...the next episode looks like it will be the best yet.

 

There's only one thing that REALLY annoyed me about this episode. Let me start by reposting something I wrote about Downfall of a Droid:

Ok, and NOW, we have Kit's droid R6-H5, and lo and behold, he look just like an R2 unit! While watching the episode I was holding on to the hope that "R6" might actually stand for R2-R6, but the Episode Guide quickly shattered that. In this droid's case the offense is even worse, because not only does he lack the R5-like squashed dome of the R6 series droids, but that series shouldn't even exist until the Battle of Endor!

What puzzles me is that it would be so easy to avoid such idiocy. Either name the droid R2-whatever, or, better yet, give it a DIFFERENT dome? Wouldn't that be neat? And c'mon, modelling an extra astromech dome is not that hard, I can do it for them in a couple of hours...

 

If you take official as meaning canon and consider only what's contained within the six live-action SW movies as canon, then I guess there is no official back story for Grievous--he's a mystery. Or you can go to the starwars site and check out what's under his listing in the databank and that's about as official as it gets, I'd say, even though the background material falls under the sub-heading 'From the Expanded Universe'. Most of the sanctioned work done expanding the Grievous character has been done by Abel G. Pena and that's where you'll find a lot of the stuff about the shuttle crash, why Grievous hates Jedi, etc. A handy place to find most of those articles is at:
http://www.abelgpena.com/starwars.htm

There's also an old discussion thread about this, which Abel G. Pena himself cheerfully took part in, here on theforce.net at:
http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/21238198/p1

Failing that, I'm sure there are also tons of Grievous fans who'd be only too happy to fill you in further themselves and all you have to do is ask. Because when it comes to SW characters, I think it's fair to say that Grievous is a lot like Keith's beer...those of us who like him, like him a lot!

 

I agree that spoilers ruin the deal. That's why I don't read the episode threads until AFTER I've seen the episode. Why would anyone that doesn't want to see spoilers come here and read a thread that says "spoilers allowed"? Seems very easy to avoid. Aside from the preview from last week - I had no idea what I was going to see Friday night.

 

Actually that wasn't Seth Mcfarlane(creator/voice of characters in Family Guy), it was Dave Acord


Good Stuff

 

Umm...okay, we get it. You hate being spoiled with info before the ep shows. I think many here have agreed with your point. But, umm...the episode has aired! (Three times already, one more tonight.) I can see your complaint fitting in if this was before it showed. I know there were a few comments on this thread when it started earlier this week, which I avoided. But it has aired, many of us are discussing what happenED, some are now going into the prod. notes, web-com, etc... So what is up?

Are you having some time-continuum problems? Are you still in the past, perhaps on Thursday, Dec.12??

And to my knowledge, we haven't discussed anything of the next episode, nor would we, for the sake of spoiling it for others and for us. Plus, why would we discuss next week's ep in this week's thread?!? Garth Maul would edit it out and give us a serious lashing if we did!

So, chill, relax...we get it and agree. This is not a flame or a ridicule, just trying to see your point. It just seems like you're accusing us of spoiling it for you with this discussion. If by some reason you haven't watched it yet, then yeah, don't come in here, if it's gonna spoil it for you. I wouldn't.

Wait a sec...maybe it is WE who are in the future!

 

Hi! Mad Grievous fan here! Saw your question and thought I would pop in with some sort of an answer. Some sources for Grievous original origin.(aka shuttle crash) Some have already been listed above.

Visionaries comic-Eyes of Revolution
Star wars Revenge of the sith visual guide
Abel Pena article in Star Wars insider -Lord of war
Star wars- The new guide to alien species
Obi wan's Foe- (kiddie book)
Labyrinth of Evil

I think its pretty cool that there are now two distict types of Grievous fans. The ones who dig a much more sinister, bad since birth Grievous, and the noble savage (for lack of better words, sorry) Grievous who was set up, and blown up, and told the jedi/ and or republic were responsible. I have to admit I am one of the old schoolers who likes the original backstory. I think what I liked about it the most, was that it put jedi into a sort of difficult position. Grievous's people's enemies ( the yam'rii, who slaved and killed kaleesh) pleaded to the republic asking for help in fighting the kaleesh once Grievous and his troops really started kicking their A$$ES. Jedi were sent out to get in on the conflict and trade sanctions were slapped down on Kalee. Grievous's people died in droves from starvation. Naturally, Grievous can't stand jedi or the republic because of this. Now, I don't like to believe the old boy was a saint when fully fleshed. He was a warlord afterall, and warlords do all kinds of unmentionable acts.I can totally see him taking a few kaleesh heads from differing tribes. Whatever his origin, Grievous is an awesome villian. I just hope Dooku starts training the hell out of him so we can see him slice and dice a few jedi MASTERS!!

Sorry so gabby!

 

I have the Visionaries trade comic with the origin of Grievous, it's very cool, I recommend it.
I loved this episode, I thought the duel at the end was great. I don't understand how people can be critical at all about the series. Yer not getting any more movies, so suck it up and enjoy yourselves for 1/2 an hour, FTW

 

If you could follow a simple discussion, you would know that I was referring to the people who knew about the entire plot of the episode before it even aired. I just don't get those people...that is my point.

Are you done flexing your muscles now?

 

ooo...sassy..
I've got your muscles baby.

 

Never read any EU material (although I may start taking a peek at the Clone Wars comics) so I really can't decide which Grievous I like the best. But I personally like this one. He's in my view more of a tactician and a leader than a fighter. And I like how they show him as sort of a failure, a once great and proud warrior who is now stuck with an army of incompetent battledroids and a boss demanding more of him.

Anyway, we'll be stuck with this guy for another 2½ (4½? heard some people say 5 seasons, but I find that hard to believe) seasons, so they probably make him start out at the bottom to allow for some character development. As Dooku said, in this episode he was a bit better, but there is still room for improvement

I wouldn't say this is the final nail in the coffin for the character, rather the first nail removed in the process of opening the coffin... if you know what I mean ^^

 

I've become a recent fan of Greivous and I kind of prefer him really evil and not tragic but I do respect people who prefer the other way. I want Greivous to be evil but likable. Like Alan Rickman in Die Hard.

 

Why so serious? I sense much anger in you. If you could follow a simple discussion, the majority here agreed with you, as did I. Your continual rant is what makes no sense. And so what if people do what they do? Some people like to read the last page of a book before even starting. How does it affect you?

Maybe instead of whining about what other people are doing, perhaps you can add something positive to the discussion. Forum whining is not constructive and only brings more hate. (This case, in point...)

Oh yeah...this chick has got muscles you wouldn't believe.

 

You've touched on a real good point here, MvG-88, because one of the things I know a lot of older Grievous fans would just love to see is scenes of Dooku putting Grievous through some really heavy-duty training, lightsaber and otherwise. True, it would clash a bit with already established background stuff--Grievous is already well-trained before he's unleashed on the Jedi early on in the Clone Wars according to some references--but based solely on what's going on with him in TCW to date, he's now in a really ideal position for the above scenario to play out from scratch. There's potential there for sure... And even if I don't personally care for what they've done with the guy so far, it's still a valid, entertaining version of him that I think will work out fine in the end as long as the series maintains it's own internal consistency in developing the character. Revising him has obviously already worked for some people. Look at all the new fans he's got popping up--go, Grievy! Yeah!

 

Speaking of tongue lashings from Garth Maul, I think it's time we shut down this particular line of conversation. I think you guys had a bit of a miscommunication, but let's drop it, please. G_M.

 

Of course. My apologies to you and to all here in this wonderful forum.

 

No apology needed here Jedi_Soral, this chick rocks. A female SW fan is always cool to see, and she has a very cool strong Princess Leia thing going which is also very appealing LOL!

To close that topic, we all like to prepare differently for an episode and to each their own.

(what really sucks is a guy like my brother in law who watches a movie before I get there and then pretends that he's predicting what will happen seconds before it does... thru the whole friggin movie LOL. Only made the mistake of watching a movie over there once. He asked me to come watch the new Batman and I said NO THANKS, I ALREADY SEEN IT. Then I went and bought it lol.)

 

So I just saw it tonight...

Liked how it was a win/win for Dooku.
Enjoyed the Lair itself, liked all the statues =)
Nice to see a Jedi go down, I thought it was handled quite well, almost like GG was toying with him =)
Kit Fisto was far out, and I was sold on his quality more and more as the show went on.

Best of all, and it was noted in an earlier post about Dooku training him, I felt they almost spoon fed that to us, which I had no trouble, with mind you. All the Padawan hair braids on the table, the killing of a Jedi who has no focus or experience, and of course Dookus specific mention of the skill it takes to drop a "Jedi Master".

This episode was spot on for me as a real GG fan. Regardless of the backstory that happens to be real/first/canon/otherwise, I was happy to get anything, let alone a great jumpoff episode to develop this character.

Watching Fisto be true to the form of a Jedi in this episode was a great counter to the nature of GGs lack of understanding his opponent. It will be cool to see that change if the creators find some good material in it. Getting a chance to see Dooku train him is only win.

Episode rocked on the whole, sorry for rambling.

 

That wasn't rambling, don't worry.

It was quite creepy to see the Padawan braids sitting there on display.

Assuming that the Padawan braid is a human affectation, obviously Grievous has killed a bunch of human Padawans.