The Clone Wars- Episode 111: Dooku Captured Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Well, if they're trying to make Ahsoka like the teenage girls I see around the malls these days....


At least if she was a Twi'lek, you could say it was a cultural thing. Why not have her in a traditional Jedi robe?

I'm glad Luminara was so well-received, I'd be happy to see more from her.

I don't know what malls you're talking about, but rarely do I see eleven year-olds bouncing around dressed anything like Ahsoka. I'm not saying nobody's dressed like that, but it's not the norm that some people are pretending it is.

(And I'm not sure where these rave reviews of Luminara are at. The only thing I remember about her was that she came across as incompetent - Ahsoka "taught" her several times - and that she needed Ahsoka to save her from Ventriss. That, and the fact that she played the pacifist to Ahsoka's pro-torture hawk.)

Personally I wish we could see the Jedi in more than traditional robes! Battle armour...cold weather gear... all kinds of stuff since they are travelling around as spies and warriors these days.

I kind of feel she dresses herself exactly how a 14 year old girl with no parents around to tell her how not to dress, would dress.

I seriously can't imagine Yoda saying something to her like, "A WHORE dressed like you are!"

So....the Jedi allow their members to dress however they want? So that means that all the Padawans CHOOSE to have braids and all the Knights CHOOSE to wear robes.

The word "whore" probably doesn't exist in the SW universe....but Yoda would definitely find a tactful way to make that same point. (Of course, that's Lucas's Yoda, who is an entirely different character than Filoni & Co.'s.)

(Of course, that's Lucas's Yoda, who is an entirely different character than Filoni & Co.'s.)[/quote]

Not really since GL overseas everything.

Regarding Obi-Wan not freeing the prisoners...

1. Not a situation he knows enough about to make an informed decision about.
2. Not his job. At the moment, it was imperative that he find Anakin.


As for Ahsoka's clothing...

1. I think perhaps some of you are reading in certain socio-gender statements that may not be there. Not every instance of revealing clothing is a commentary on what makes women valuable. (Besides, y'all are ignoring Luminara and Padme.)

2. Perhaps it is a cultural thing. We've never seen a teenage Togruta before. Maybe that's what girls (and/or boys) that age wear. Or maybe it's a physiological thing.

3. In the end, perhaps it was done simply to make her look exotic.

(This coming from a consevative Christian preacher, by the way.)


As for DBrennan's questions about why Ahsoka acts as she does...

Why do they have pet names for each other? - Because it's in her nature to give people nicknames (Stinky, Artooie), and it's friendly banter.

Why doesn't Ahsoka wear armor? - Maybe for the same reason other Jedi in the series don't. (Remember, Padme, his actual love interest, wears full clothing. So does that mean the show is trying to push that they don't have a relationship.)

Why does Ahsoka wear a skin-bearing midriff? - Why did Padme? Or Aayla? Or Leia? Different reasons, but with one common thread: it wasn't because they were the love interest for a character

Why didn't they give Obi-Wan a Padawan? - Because Anakin needs to learn to let people go. So you give him a padawan that he trains, and then has to let go of. In that way, you're training him to not become so attached. Obi-Wan doesn't have a big problem with attachment, so no need to give him a padawan.

Why does Ahsoka say, "That's my master" with a dreamy look on her face, the same way women are known to say, "That's my man"? - I personally didn't take her statement that way. In fact, I heard a bit of disdain or frustration in her voice. Plo Koon laments that Skywalker is craving adventure and excitement (not a good thing). Ahsoka is used to it, and on one level is ok with it but on another has a problem with it.

Why does so much of their dialogue seem like an obvious attempt to hack the screwball bantering of the famous romantic comedies of the 30's and 40's (such as 'It Happened One Night' and 'All About Eve')? - I don't see it as an obvious attempt, etc. etc.

-I really think you're seeing things that aren't there. Why that is, I don't know.



As for DBrennan's observation about SW being originally anti-authority, and it now being pro-authority, politically correct, etc.,...

I've never really seen that as being a dimension of the saga. In the time of the OT the main authority in the galaxy (the Empire) was corrupt and evil. Thus the heores, fighting evil, were fighting that authority. But that doesn't mean the films were anti-authority. I'd say they were anti-evil. (Note, the heroes seemed to be ok with following the orders of the Rebel Alliance.)

As for now, the authority the Jedi serve (the Council) isn't evil. Sometimes they may be misguided. But they aren't evil. Thus the heroes, fighting evil, aren't going to be fighting that authority. (But note, they still don't always do exactly as they are told...if they feel the authority is misguided. For example, note how Anakin and Ahsoka bend the rules a bit when looking for Plo Koon...because they think the Council is misguided.)


As for Dooku being able to be captured by pirates...

It seems to me that those of you who are really into the EU in terms of the extent of Jedi/Sith powers may have to "unlearn what you have learned." No offense. But just look at just the films. How powerful are the Jedi and the Sith portrayed? Powerful yes. But not superman powerful. Many Jedi died at the hands of the stupid battle droids and some Geonosians in Ep 2. Anakin, while still a Jedi, bested Sith Lord Dooku. Kenobi, a Padawan, defeated Darth Maul. Most of the Jedi were defeated by the Clones that were with them when Order 66

According to at least one EU source (think it was the Ep 2 visual guide), the Jedi don't have an actual dress code. The cloth robes, earth-tones, and braids are traditions that most Jedi adhere to. But they aren't requirements.

So, short answer to your question: Yes.

I've only argued in favor of the latter. I mean, I was arguing in the other thread that flight is fine for Jedi/Sith. There are two definite camps on this and thus both camps argue for interpretations which conflict with one another.

Of course, if accurate, her crush makes her a terrible Jedi given that it would definitely be an attachment. Yet, the series runners seem to want her to be a great one.

I cant wait till friday to see how the "Duoku captured" thing pans out. I still think that Douku is in league with at least some of them. Remember in the movie "pirates" captured Jabba's son and Douku was behind that, so possibly he used some of these same pirates and told them to help him capture a few Jedi as a bargining tool.

Even though Filoni's Yoda acts like a mix of TESB Yoda and PT Yoda, both Lucas creations?

Good point, I don't see how Filoni's Yoda is any different from Lucas. He acts eccentric in the 1st episode, much like he did in ESB. And then he became the wise leader like the PT Yoda.

It's easier to argue that PT and CT Yoda are not the same character. Granted, they shouldn't really be, considering what took place in the intervening years. CW Yoda is really not out of place, leaning more towards the PT Yoda in most episodes, but with a healthy dose of CT Yoda in Ambush.

If you guys are disgusted with Dooku's capture, you must have been furious when you saw Order 66 onscreen.

I mean, Aayla gets taken down by what, 3 troopers? Plo Koon shot out of the sky, Ki-Adi taken out by maybe 10 troopers.




EDIT: As I've mentioned before, the Force in the GFFA is like Spider-Man's "spidey sense": it's all over the place.

I'll grant that that was a bit odd. No doubt. But...

1. We don't know how the lightsaber theft happened. Maybe if we did then what we saw would make sense.

2. Dooku, even after being captured, had a low estimation of the pirates. Maybe his overconfidence was his weakness, and he never expected they could take his lightsaber, so he never checked it until it was too late.

3. A Jedi or Sith's connection to the Force doesn't seem to be constant. I.e., they appear to have good days and bad days. Maybe this was an off day for Dooku.

4. In the end, I figure this is a limits of the medium thing. They didn't have time in the episode to go into plausible detail about how Dooku could lose his saber. So they left it offscreen and unsaid. But we as an audience might expect Dooku to fight back when arriving at the pirates' base. We need to know his saber is gone. And this little trap needs to be a surprise for Dooku. So they have us and Dooku learn that he is weaponless at the same time. Not a perfect solution. But for a 22 minute episode, concessions have to be made.

While we're on the subject of how Ashoka dresses...

I thought that one of the coolest features of the Jedi Alliance game for DS was that you could unlock alternate outfits for the characters, so one of my personal goals while playing it was to make Ashoka actually wear clothes.

EDIT: And let's talk about her other interesting fashion choices:

Ganuntlets
White Stockings

and my personal favorite

A really ugly necktie over her crotch

Look, I just read through this crappy new book 'Shadows of Minadar' and any regular joe who picked it up wouldn't even recognize it as SW. It was this asinine, militaristic, unimaginative crap. Again, they turned the REBEL Alliance into....the U.S.A. DoD (the largest most powerful force in the history of the world; the antithesis of "rebels").

Then there's the fact that the PT was a subversive tale about false flag terror and war, and yet the CW is this pro-government idiocy.

Lucas was explicit in numerous interviews that, in ROTJ, the Empire = U.S.A. Now....well, they're saying the Republic = U.S.A.

This is probably a big discussion for another forum (the Saga Forum, I'd guess), but there's a lot more to it than your parroting of the CW cartoons' philosophies.

They seemed to have a hodgepodge of different accents to me. Which is pretty much what you'd expect from a band of pirates.

The interesting bit about this is that the Jedi, culturally, are (or should be) all identified more as "Jedi" than as members of their particular species (Togruta, in this case). They're brought to the temple at a very early age and all ties to their former families seem to be severed. It should follow that they have more in common with their fellow knights than most members of their own species.

Which kind of offers an in-universe excuse for Ahsoka's dress code: she's imitating Aayla. Shaak-Ti is a lot more Jedi-traditional. Although the screenshots I've seen from TFU suggest that she started dressing a little more seductively as she entered her what, late fifties?

Okay, that's mostly just a joke. But I'm not buying the idea that there's some coded sexual tension intended between Anakin and Ahsoka, because I don't see what purpose that would serve... the creators of the show obviously can't deliver on it. I think there might be an argument that Ahsoka is there to be objectified, but I do not at all see any evidence that Anakin's doing the objectifying. The reality is probably something more along the lines of typical superhero attire, which typically looks pretty much painted on, and has long been standard issue for fantasy fulfillment characters male and female.

I know a bit about how girls in the show's target demographic relate to Ahsoka, They relate to her because they think it would be cool to be a Jedi. And they don't vicariouly crush on Anakin, because they think his secret marriage with Padme is cool in a sort of Disney Princess way. It's all pretty innocuous.

Erm, this should probably be in a different thread, though.

I have a theory about this.


What if, originally, that Grievous was intended to be in Dooku's role in this?

The dialogue fits, the "JEDI FOOLS!", running "like a coward" and grabbing Anakin's saber was very in character for Grievous. If the General had his sabers stolen, he would be rendered powerless and easliy captured, unlike Dooku. Dooku seemed to me be acting like Grievous throughout and didn't feel like the Dooku in the rest of the series.

Lucas realized at some point that Anakin could not meet Grievous and replced Grievous with Dooku.

It's the only way I can see them overlooking the mistakes in the final form of this episode.

Of course, some truly excellent thoughts, but it's the cumulative effect of the media, our peer groups, and our families that affects our mind set as we grow up. I grew up in the tumultous 60's - Mrs. Cleaver meet flower child hippie chick times - no wonder I'm a mix of old and new attitudes.

Sure, SW alone can't change the tide or be expected to, but doesn't it have to start somewhere (and this is coming from the office "flaming liberal" a/k/a moderate in a conservative industry).

Um, sure, Padme is fully clothed - skin tight. The lady's pants must chaff terribly (pants usually drape over the derriere, not outline them like that), but I do understand the concept of trying to animate clothing.

Cultural thing: great punt. Only problem: why choose a culture that has teeny-boopy adolescents who act/dress like that? In another thread, another time, it was suggested one reason that Ahsoka was added because there were too few female Jedi seen in action, and already too many human males.

Well, I'm not calling "affirmative action for female Jedi" by any means, but one didn't have to add an over-sexed-in-dress Togruta to add the female character. (As an aside, more Luminara - a very competent one, please!)

I have no disagreement with the rest of the quote I quoted and in agree in large part, except this:

I really think you're seeing things that aren't there. Why that is, I don't know.

Whether addressed to others or myself, might I respectfully suggest: because you haven't looked, or you've looked and haven't see? Maybe you don't see what I and others do because it's commonplace and normal nowadays, so you have a

And again, guys, well done on the debate, but the sexualization of Ahsoka is only tangentially-related to this thread, and there's a bunch of threads we could be discussing it in.

Actually, check the commentary again. Yes, he does confirm that Dooku would not have won had he challenged that many adversaries at once. But that doesn't mean one way or the other that Dooku didn't intend to get captured. Filoni even goes on to ask rhetorically in the commentary if Dooku meant to get captured. He offers no answer, only that it's a good question.

I enjoyed this episode. Hate that I couldn't chime in on the discussion before now, but it's been a busy week. By myself, I didn't catch on that Dooku was likely manipulating certain events, but after reading the theories here I can see all the clues were there. Guess we'll see in a couple of days!

I'm a little put off by the idea of the Jedi working with Dooku under any circumstances, but I'll hold off judgment 'til the episode hits. I am looking forward to more Jar Jar, as he truly lifts the show for me. George really loved that character, and it shows that he still does. Jar Jar is a major character whose arc didn't get a chance to play out in the films due (IMO) to fan venom, and I'm glad Lucas feels able to do more with him now!