Full Series The Clone Wars- Episode 111: Dooku Captured Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Yeah but Uli, Dooku is not in Palpatine's league.

Though I do admit I like my Force powers more reserved than some

The comic-verse has never been shy on flaunting the bigger is better portrayal of the Force as well. It's one of the reasons I've never found my way into it fully. Maybe one day

Sometimes bigger isn't better, sometimes it works fine. I personally don't want Dooku to be an invincible god. He's kinda a lackey keeping Anakin's seat warm. Him besting thirty plus armed soldiers without his lightsaber isn't something I want to see.

There is no right and wrong, just a difference in fan wants, meesa thinks

 

I was being sincere.

Seriously. I don't begrudge you the fact that you don't care about the greater body of Star Wars canon. That's your perogative. I don't begrudge you enjoying or even loving the episode. Not one bit. I want as many people to love, enjoy and appreciate The Clone Wars as possible. Why would I want otherwise? You think I want other people to feel the way I did about this episode? This episode, especially after the great last one, made me feel awful (as much as a cartoon can make me feel awful). Why would I want other people to feel like that?

That's not sarcasm.

I do appreciate, however, that I have thusfar been overly abrasive (even though I tried to communicate 'no hard feelings' through the use of smilies) and I will tone that down.

[image=http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h125/Ulicus/realSithLord.jpg]
I don't think Dooku's that good (Palpatine is the greatest Dark Lord in history) but it gives you an idea of why the suggestion that Dooku would have been taken down, no question, irks me.

The loss of the lightsaber should make it harder for him... but not impossible.

I see a difference between taking out thirty or forty guys and dismantling hundreds of battle droids barehanded, frankly. One is far more "out there" than the other.

As it happens, I don't think Dooku would be able to defeat these guys with a click of his fingers... but I do think he should be more than capable of doing it considering his power and intelligence. I'm not talking about him waving his hand and having them all drop dead, I'm suggesting that a tactical use of his powers - similar to those employed by Kenobi on the Malevolence - would have seen him victorious.

And his powers far exceed Kenobi's.

I'm interested to know, actually, as to whether you think he could have pulled if off if he'd kept his lightsaber.

Thoughts?

And the droidekas, too?

We usually see Jedi running away from them, after all.

You know, mate, I agree wholeheartedly. Keep in mind that I'm defending my viewpoint, here, rather than trying to make - say - the Attackinator change his. His opinion is his to have... I object to his insinuation that I'm not allowed to dislike the episode because mine is "wrong", or based in the not-even-particularly good previous Clone Wars cartoon, however.

I come from a heavy EU background. That is the prism through which I see Star Wars which is, to me, far more than a series of six movies out of which only two are really any good. Therefore the episode doesn't really work for me.

I don't like examples of Jedi senses being so flawed that brothers-in-arms cannot even sense each other's presence in the Force - even though we've got an example of that happening in RotS, too. I don't like Force powers, such as breath control, which are perfe

 

I really don't thinking referencing the New Jedi Order is a great way of proving your point, the Jedi there are so overpowered it's ridiculous.

And that's the first time I've ever read someone say that Maul trashed Obi-Wan; I guess we just see their duel in very different ways.

Guys, please be careful here when discussing the realism (ha ha ha, oh realism in the SW universe) of Dooku's capture. I think at this point, we've made most of the available points on both sides. This is often when the conversation degenerates into name-calling and frustration.

I still think the films themselves, the highest level of Canon we have, clearly show that it was reasonable, in-universe, for Dooku to surrender when surrounded by 30 Weequay pirates. Plus, as others have stated, it's really the best option for Dooku to play along at this point - he has nowhere else to go.

At any rate, I think it's far less likely for him to have his pockets "picked" by a Kowakian monkey lizard.

But really, a Jedi/Sith Mind Trick? Have we ever seen a Jedi employ a mind trick on a large number of beings before? Sith Lightning the entire group? We've never seen Dooku this powerful in the films, and I don't expect him to be this powerful in the TCW cartoon.



My biggest problems with this episode are

(1) tacked-on scenes (the entire Ahsoka conversation did not advance the plot at all);

(2) over-use of previously-employed SW scenes like (a) Dooku bringing down the ceiling, (b) Anakin losing his lightsaber, (c) banter between Kenobi & Skywalker, et cetera.;

(3) next week's episode.

 

In the duel? Sure he did.

That's why Obi-Wan is left dangling in a shaft and Maul is standing over him crowing in victory. The fact that Obi-Wan then proceeds to leap up and kill him after the 'duel' has ended is somewhat beside the point.

Frustration, certainly. I didn't name call - and I think my previous post, at the least, is perfectly reasonable.

We've never seen characters go to the toilet in the films.

Edit: We barely see Dooku in the films, really. And when we do it's just for duels, in which he soundly trounces Obi-Wan and Anakin and then proceeds to battle Yoda to what looks like a draw. In the latter instance, I actually think that's a case of the lofty G-Canon making him "overpowered".

I'd have much preferred him to have fought Mace.

Edit 2: Bah. My spelling is atrocious.

 

"over-use of previously-employed SW scenes like (a) Dooku bringing down the ceiling"

Sure, but this is the first time this attack has actually worked for him.

Does anybody else think Anakin and Obi-Wans meting in the cell was a homage to Dala and Shysa`s last meting in the marvel Star Wars comics? It was very similar.

 

I always thought a grand jedi master could fight the way Mace Windu did in Clone Wars, so I can see where some people think Dooku should have avoided all this. But, I also think the situations were entirely different in retrospect. Windu had to fight like that because, one, droids were trying to kill him, and two, being a grand master like Yoda is, it would be possible for him to do so against these inferior types of soldiers. Now with Dooku, well, had to bide his time. And considering they were just trying to take him prisoner and hold him for ransom, he knew the time would come to free himself.

 

I did find it odd that the lizard was able to take his lightsabres, but it's acceptable, we have no idea what happened on that ship. But I do find it very believable that Dooku surrendered. He was surrounded by pirates with rifles aimed at him on every side, if one of them pulled the trigger he would be dead. What was he gonna do? Pull his lightsaber? He couldn't deflect 30 shots at once. A 360 degree mass force lightning? Really, have we ever seen Dooku pull something like that off? He certainley didn't show such powers in the movies.

Sure the EU displays Jedi and Sith as able to do pull off the most impressive stunts, but all EU works are written by different writers, and all have different takes on what Star Wars is even though they stay largely true to the source material. I'm not gonna say this if a fact, but I think it's a pretty qualified guess that over time in search for new and interesting stories the power of the Jedi and Sith may have been exaggerated in comparison to what we see in the movies. There are as many views and interpretations of Star Wars as there are people in the world, in this specific take on Star Wars Dooku cannot fight himself out of that situation, in another he may have been able to, but not here.

Besides looking at the commentary it seemed a lot like it was a setup and that next week we'll be laughing at this.^^

 

As I've quoted before, from the recent Filoni/Gilroy interview:

Halfway through the first season, George was so excited with what we were doing, he came in one day with an outline and handed it to me, ?Turn that into a script.? It was a story called ?Count Dooku Captured.? From then on, George got into the writing \ scripting process in a big way. On season two, ALL of the story ideas came from George, except a couple that were originally written in season one by Dave and I (& Dini). I think season three is the same way.

It's obvious that Filoni does not have any choice in some major plot points. If GL hands over a script that says Dooku was overwhelmed by a force-insensitive gang of 40, then Filoni obeys. The problem is that GL has surrounded himself with lackeys. People have too much respect for his accomplishments from the OT that they fail to realize when he has fallen off his rocking chair.

BTW, I'm with the crowd that agrees that Dooku should have been able to take out the 30-40 chubs. Explain to me why, if a Jedi can move his hand at the speed of light to block a friggin blaster bolt, that he cannot whip some regular mofos with some hand-to-hand combat? Why can't you people just imagine them moving their fists around without a lightsaber in hand? In this respect, the Tartovsky episode with Mace was not out of the question.

 

My thoughts on the capture of Dooku:

Ki-Adi-Mundi is presented in the prequels as the third most powerful master on the Jedi Council, this is proven by the fact that he has the rare Jedi ability to talk on screen, something not even Plo Koon can do.
He is probably not as powerful a fighter as Dooku, but probably not far behind him since Yoda and Mace were both at the same level as the emperor.

Of the Jedi that were killed in Episode 3 as a result of order 66, Ki-Adi-Mundi was the only one who got a chance to defend himself. It appeared that he understood what was going to happen since he managed to block several of the shots before he was killed.

What I think is pretty relevant to the capture of Dooku is that Ki-Adi-Mundi was only attacked from one angle and he had his lightsaber on. Dooku had enemies pointing guns at him from every angle and he didn?t have his lightsaber. Why would Dooku be able to survive that situation when a lot less was needed to kill a high ranking Jedi master?

 

This is the bottom line on the capture, well said Garth! If Douku had strong enough force powers to lightning over 30 pirates all spread out like that, why wouldn't he have filled the whole room with it or make it attack Obiwan from several different angles in ATOC? Why would he stop trying the lightning when the saber blocks it, he'd just try it again on a much higher level. Even Palpatine couldn't use the lightning that powerfully in ROTS against Yoda. Or in ROTJ against Luke although it seems he was toying with Luke in the beg of useing it. But still, even after he says "NOW YOUNG SKYWALKER, YOU WILL DIE" the power still doesn't kill him immediately. Luke has plenty of time to even muster up a "FATHER PLESE". If even Palpatines lightning powers were that strong as soon as Vader picked him up HE'D HAVE REALLY LET A MASSIVE BURST FLY EVERYWHERE!

I think that the EU is cool, but most of its NOT canon. Too many fans read these storys to get an additional SW fix and thats cool. But Lucas like him or not is the one who says what the force powers can REALLY do. And most of the EU is what various writers WISH they could do. Just because some guy writes a story, even if Lucas gives him his blessing to do so doesn't mean its Lucas' vision.

 

If the EU is taken into account (and I'm aware that you're not, but I'm explaining my position) attacking Force Users with the Force is considerably different than attacking a regular joe. We know that the Jedi and Sith, and probably the other Force using traditions of the galaxy, can put up "barriers" to an extent that dampen and/or block the opponents ability to act on them with the Force.

That's why you don't usually see Sith, Dark Jedi and Jedi just playing a game of "snatch the lightsaber with the Force" when they go into battle. Unless, of course, one is considerably more powerful than the other (Yoda and Ventress, for example).

Those barriers can be broken through, sure, but with difficulty. And so it's easier to just have a sword fight.

Obviously Force-users don't have to worry about such things when dealing with the Force-blind, however. If a Sith doesn't have to worry about his or her lightning being deflected or otherwise nullified or absorbed, then he or she need not focus it so thoroughly so as to "break through".

Official LFL policy remains that it's all canon unless designated "N".

I don't have a problem with people disregarding it if they so desire, their call, but it is canon. Even if Lucas disagrees (and he doesn't even mind going against his own internal continuity: see the OT-PT discrepencies), until LFL changes its stance, it's canon.

"It's canon but I'll choose to ignore it because it doesn't represent the vision of Lucas" is acceptable to me.

"It's not canon" is not, especially if that statement is rooted in the belief that the EU doesn't jive with the films' portrayal. For the most part, it does.

 

Yeah, but there's different levels of canon, with the films being the highest level.


People talking about Lucas wrote the entire script for Dooku Captured I think don't understand how the process works. Lucas doesn't get a writing credit for this episode; I'm sure he brought the original idea: hey, let's get Dooku captured by pirates, and then Obi-Wan and Anakin get captured, and then the 3 of them have to work together to escape.

Getting a one-page treatment and turning it into the finished product are vastly different things.

Just remember what Kevin Rubio said about the process.

 

Uli and Garth covered this already. It's all canon of some kind. Be it G-Canon or C-Canon. Anyone who wished to is free to follow whatever they wish. CWA is not on a canon level with the films, though it is still apparently higher than the general EU.

Still, CWA makes some direct links to the EU through a variety of means. Be it the use of Ventriss, to Qymaen jai Sheelal's War Mask, to numerous names of planets and locals. It's still going to be one big universe when the series is over with newer canon overriding older stuff.

What can in no way fit will be discarded while everything else will remain when that New, New, Newer Essential Chronology comes out

 

That's my take on it as well. Being from the oldest of old schools, when the EU was the Marvel series (etc.) and the OT was still being made, ah, the Lucas-sanctioned facts I can recall... Owen and Obi-Wan as brothers; Jabba the Hut (sic) as a biped; Luke and Leia being different ages; backstories about the Jedi trio of Kenobi, Vader *and* Skywalker: Boba Fett wearing the armor of an Imperial Shock Trooper, and heck, I even recall some brontosaurus-looking gundarks. Point being I kind of learned my lesson early: Lucas doesn't heed the spinoffs if he changes his mind about something, so don't get too.. erm, attached. Enjoy, but be prepared to let go.

To the good in this episode: believable (and enjoyable!) crowd scenes which felt very SW. In the CW movie, I felt like Jabba and Ziro's lairs were sparsely populated, and kind of too orderly and sterile compared to the saga films (although I didn't know at the time that there were budget limits on the number of characters produced). The Weequay base was awesome and lively in contrast. The Weequay themselves were a lot more fun than I expected.

Just as well the the Dooku-lightsaber-monkey-pickpocketing happened offscreen. It's possible-- I can imagine it as possible if it happened while Dooku was really really distracted by a lot of things happening at once-- but it probably would've looked silly.

Did anyone else find it strange that Dooku publicly referred to himself as a Sith Lord? Yes, it was just to a small group of pirates, and mostly meant to scare them, but it just doesn't seem prudent. Admitting to being a master of the dark side of the Force just doesn't sound like good PR for a guy who's supposed to be the charismatic leader of a vastly popular political movement. Almost like running for president as an admitted Satanist, isn't it?

 

Sure, but it's an internal system, one that only makes a difference insofar as contradictions are concerned, and is ultimately irrelevant to us as fans.

If "T Canon" states A and "C canon" states B then A takes the biscuit, certainly.

If "T Canon" merely suggests or alludes to A and "C Canon" states B, however, there's no reason for B not to be considered canon. (This was demonstrated admirably in the Lair of General Grievous, an episode I adored.)

Lucas simply saying something doesn't make it canon, either, as the Star Wars canon continues to tell us that Luke Skywalker eventually married Mara Jade and the Emperor managed to live on in clone bodies despite the fact that Lucas has said words to the contrary.

I don't care if people ignore C-Canon, but you can't say that it's not canon, regardless of its level.

"Not canon" is N Canon.

 

Yeah, I noticed that too...when they showed the ship over the ridge, I was half expecting Indy and Mutt and the others to be sitting up on the ridge looking down I mean, I would expect maybe Bith or Duros(sp?) to have a ship like that, not Weequay(well, maybe they stole it from them... )

Yeah, I remember Coleman Trembor,(I think that's what the Jedi master's name was), getting shot like a punk by Jango and it seemed that the Jedi in the arena were certainly outmatched until Yoda came to their rescue with the Clones...so I could see Dooku surrendering to the pirates, although it did seem contrived to me. And I missed the monkey lizard taking his sabers.

 

You didn't miss it, it was off screen ^^

And yeah the saucer did feel a little out of place, especially with the sound effect. But it was still a neat little treat and it was only there for a second or so so who cares

 

This was my favorite episode yet. Itr really had that Star Wars feel with a perfect balance of action, drama, and comedy. The gundark was awsome and I liked seeing Anakin and Obi-Wan's banter. This was only hinted at in episode 3 and it was good to see them joking around.

I think Dooku set himself up getting captured and he has a greater plan. Sidious probably told him to do it so they could get trust of even pirates. Hondo was a fun character, Jim Cummings did a great job with him. I also liked the monkey lizard and the saucer craft I thought were kind of hilarious. Overall, an almost perfect episode. I'm glad they did this as a two-parter.

Next week's looks pretty good actually, it looks like there will be more action than Bombad Jedi, but it sounds like Ahmed Best isn't voicing Jar Jar, WTF! Oh well, looking foreward to the Gungan General.

 

It wouldn't be the first time I've thought that Lucas did something which didn't make sense. I also think his current view that Vader is weaker than RotS Anakin makes no sense.

I think that's the crux of it, and I should probably add a disclaimer that when I say I think that Filloni is wrong, it's essentially me saying that my interpretation of Star Wars simply differs from his.

Huh, that is interesting. However, if it was simply Lucas bringing in the outline, they could have come up with a better way to handle Dooku getting captured, such as the pirates having a Ysalamir (which I also have issues with, but accept at this point.)

When is Ki-Adi Mundi presented as the third most powerful?

 

Yeah but Even Peill lost an eye, he must be a powerful, albeit short, Jedi as well.

 

Why does the highest ranked Jedi need top be the most skilled in combat? How about knowledge of the force and wisdom?

And I got the feeling the episodes were very much collaborative, just because George wrote the outline doesn't mean every detail stayed the same... I think