Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 201: Holocron Heist Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Oh, good. Thanks. That felt really wrong...

 

I absolutely agree with your first three sentences but I don't agree with the last. The reason it's so frustrating to me is because the Jedi can be made fallible, can make mistakes and can get hurt without transforming them into mere acrobatic swordsmen stripped of their true abilities.

I do think that the "shroud of the dark side" has weakened the Jedi's extra-sensory powers, sure, but if they want to use this as an explanation they need to actually play it up. For example, we know that in AotC, Yoda wants to hide this fact from the Senate. So we can guess that most people in the Galaxy don't know about it. So, let's look at Bane and Sidious' interaction again. I had a variation of the following in my "Manifesto" () but here the writers had a perfect opportunity to tie the episode into the Mace/Yoda exchange of AotC.

Here's one way it could have been done:

Bane: It's impossible, and deadly.
Sidious: Perhaps your reputation has been exaggerated.
Bane: Appealing to my pride? It just won't work. The Jedi can sense deceit.
Sidious: Not anymore. My powers have clouded their vision.
Bane: Interesting. I'll need....

(I would have liked: "I have *made* it possible" as Sidious' first line, though, just because it'd be a nice little TPM homage)

As it stands, Bane looks a bit stupid for thinking it's impossible one second, but being absolutely behind the idea when Sidious taunts him.

Or, if they'd preferred, they could have introduced the concept with Cato:

Bane: I'll need help from inside the temple
Cato: Are you insane? I'll never get in undetected, the Jedi can read your very thoughts!
Bane: Our Sith Lord client assues me that has been taken care of.

See? That's one of the reasons the episode was so frustrating. Not only could they have explained it but they could have done so in such a way that really upped just how terrifying Sidious is. Now, I'm not saying "I could write a better script", because I really couldn't, but these sorts of solutions are really, really simple.

Now, even with that, I do think that HH would have taken things a bit too far. It'd be one thing, for example, had Ahsoka never met the Jedi Cato was impersonating before... but for them to actually write it into the episode that she was familiar with him? It was madness. If she *knew* the Jedi Cato was impersonating, she should have been able to sense that there was something off pretty easily.

 

Hmm, that's a good and reasonable assumption. Nice.

I'm sure plenty of people noticed this, and it might very well be in some of the previous pages, but I just wanted to get this out of the way:

Bane declaring "Todo! We're getting sucked into the fan!"
...Evidence of a relation to Captain Obvious?

 

At least he wasn't wearing a cape.

I think Sidious implying he would have the Jedi's Force-sense clouded would have been good. This is very much a series to introduce to new fans, and they already spell-out plenty of stuff for us, so why not? Same thing for Cato's lightsaber skill. I don't understand why they leave explanations like this out, but have characters narrate for us things we see happening, "Now I'll just use the crystal I got from your dead Jedi friend to open the holocron."

 

The fighter with a cloaking device was part of his price for the job, not something that he needed to use to get inside the temple.

 

I think the simple fact is that the writers only have 22 mins to play around with and certain things happen simply because they have to in order for the plot to be driven forward in what is essentially a kids action series. I appreciate that people might think some of these problems could be avoided with tighter writing but a lot of these issues aren't meant to be pored over and dissected. If you think about Hitchcock's approach to logic it was the same. If you move quickly enough the vast majority of the audience simply won't care about the plot holes. Garth said it best - the Jedi need to be fallible sometimes and their powers somewhat mutable because they need to find themselves in different scrapes and scenarios that can't always be solved in the same way. I think a lot of people are right to say that a comment about the dark side clouding the Jedi's ability to use the force correctly would be a smart move though.

Also, had to laugh at the idea of Sidious and Maul disguised as tourists outside the temple. Brilliant!

 

The problem is that there is no single Star Wars universe. The Jedi in the comics, and a lot of the books as well, are way more powerful than the Jedi in the films.

I do like EU, but I don't like everything about it. A lot of people somehow want every single thing in the EU and the films, and this series to be perfectly orderly canon. That's something that's just not possible.

It would be terribly limiting for the writers if they had to acknowledge everything that's established in EU. I for one am glad they don't.

Jedi aren't as powerful as some of the EU makes them out to be. Just stick with that and you'll have a lot less trouble suspending your disbelief.

To me everything in Holocron Heist was perfectly believable from a certain point of view, and it simply was a damn fun episode.

Ok, the changeling with the lightsaber was weird, but if that's all... fine with me.

On second viewing, I did wonder about this though:

Surely Anakin and Obiwan must have noticed that the hole that TODO cut wasn't caused by an explosion. And they didn't even look once at the blown up holocron vault door. But oh well. *shrug* I just loved how Bane outsmarted them again and again.

 

I watched all of them and I live in the beautiful state of Washington State. In the Seattle Area. Sounds like it might be a regional thing. It is a shame some people couldn't hear it properly and I hope this crisis gets resolved soon. May the Force be with You.

 

Maybe what happened is the clones were fighting the droids back but then they had to stop because they were being evacuated. So then all the droids quickly converged on the walkers and Juggernaut. Also, Ahsoka said they were couldn't leave because they were starting to break through but her assessment of the situation could have been overly optimistic. Anakin tells her that in fact she is about to be overrun but can't see it.

Although the reason for his silence may be more OOU (not getting the actor for only a single line), the Jedi may in fact value silent communication. With their loyalty to each other and powers, they don't need to speak when a simple gesture can say it all. Like in the Council scenes in Ep I, some members don't speak, they just exchange glances.

Jocasta was apparently on the Council for ten years before returning to the Archives prior to Ep II.

 

Yeah, it is just a kid's cartoon show and of course I'm not supposed to dissect it with a fine tooth comb and, sure, it's not really "meant for me"... but when the parts of Star Wars that are meant for me are being overturned and rewritten to accomodate for this TV show, it means it's more than fair that I hold it to a higher standard than I normally would.

If I was a kid, I'd have loved Holocron Heist and wouldn't have even heard of the Expanded Universe. Of course, if I was a kid, I wouldn't care if the show was what "actually happened", either, yet TPTB are determined that it has to be.

I mean, honestly, a lot (not all, but a lot) of what made this episode bad for me could have been easily rectified with one or two simple lines. That's why I didn't give it a 1.

The problem is that you're wrong. The official policy of LFL is that there is a single Star Wars universe. Please don't think that I'm having a go here: I'd love for you to be right, and I would actually enjoy having a whole selection of Expanded Universes to dip into, each one as valid as the next, but that's simply not the case. What happens in TCW spills over and affects the rest of the EU, novels, comics, games... but so far, it seems to be a one-way street.

Chaos, I actually want Lucas to go back to his very original Star Wars scripts, spruce them up to a higher standard, and then make a whole new "Star Wars" cycle that's completely unconnected to the GFFA we know.

 

It will remain a one-way street, I'm afraid.

Licensing's policy is its own internal policy, but Lucas has been very explicit that the two universes are distinct (e.g. the EU being "outside of my little universe" and "different universe" and a "parallel universe" and one of "two universes: my universe and then this other one" and as different "versions of Star Wars" that "don't always mesh" and with the two versions being "completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other", unlike as occurs with "the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves", and so on and so forth ad nauseum . . . )

I consider TCW an excellent opportunity for the Expanded Universe to try to branch out and do its own thing. Hardcore EU fans would rejoice.

Lucas has compared the SW EU novels to the Star Trek novels . . . he says the different universes are what sold him on allowing the EU to exist. But whereas the Trek novels are just now starting to experiment again with inter-novel continuity after Roddenberry shut that down back in the day, the EU was always in a different boat by keeping continuity internally and with the Lucas works the whole time. The difference is that Trek doesn't have to worry about things changing (the new film is a new universe). Star Wars has had to worry about that since the late 90's with the special editions and the DVD versions of the original films, and then the prequels.

The issue has simply reached critical mass now because Licensing thought they had open season between Episodes II and III, and they were filling it up with action quickly. But now Lucas has come in and started changing things so hard that the old minor retcons that gloss over Lucas's trampling of EU facts just won't cut it anymore. Everyone knows now that the EU timeline latticework is crashing like the Hindenberg, and even Licensing is just waiting for the fire to die down so they can rebuild something a little different.

I just think it would be better if they ignored TCW altogether and made their own way. It isn't like they've never contradicted Lucas before . . . after all, Lucas is quite clear that Boba died in the Sarlacc. But oh well.

 

I know all of that, but face it. The world of the films isn't the world of the comics, no matter what policies there are. Yes, it is the same galaxy, but the things in the galaxy work in different ways. The Jedi of the books aren't the Jedi of the movies. Period. It's a different 'universe'.

 

For those of you who didn't like that I didn't like "Holocron Heist", you might be pleased to know that the first 2,000 words of my "Cargo of Doom" commentary read very much like a love letter.

I'm taking a break from it, though, because I'm bored.

I agree, and said as much. But they aren't, which is why it's a problem. Still, what everyone's forgetting is that TCW is - by definition - EU itself. It's outside the films and thus it can't be anything else.

The EU didn't invent the Jedi's ability to sense distinct presences in the Force.

Also, just to reclarify, TCW =/= Movies. It surprises me how much everyone is taking the opposite for granted.

 

I don't even know what we're talking about anymore!


At any rate, to get away from the ubiquitous EU/canon/continuity debate, I appreciate ulicus's points about the writing.

Obviously so , as I identified many of the same problems in the first 2 episodes.

It must depend on one's mood or something; certainly, when I first watched HH, I was rolling my eyes half the time. I rewatched it on Sunday and found it much more enjoyable.

 

TCW is not EU.

"Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves."
GL, May '08

"The fans are part of a Star Wars-built network Lucas divides into the father (films and TV), the son (licenced spins offs such as video games, books and comics) and the holy ghost (the fans and the internet).

??Everything in the father's world is consistent, mainly because I know it so well,'' he says.

??The son's world pretty much do their own thing."
GL, July '08

?I am the father of our Star Wars movie world - the filmed entertainment, the features and now the animated film and television series,? he says. ?And I?m going to do a live-action television series. Those are all things I am very involved in: I set them up and I train the people and I go through them all. I?m the father; that?s my work. Then we have the licensing group, which does the games, toys and books, and all that other stuff. I call that the son - and the son does pretty much what he wants.? He laughs. ?Once in a while, they ask a question like ?Can we kill off Yoda??, things like that, but it?s very loose."
GL, July '08

"When I talk to George I know that he considers his movies, this series and his live-action series canon."
Filoni, Oct. '08

"This series at least to George is NOT EU, it is a part of Star Wars as he sees it. I think if anything there was a period where Henry and I had to learn exactly what it took to be a part of George Lucas? Star Wars, and tell the Star Wars story his way. We had to learn how to look at the Galaxy from his point of view and let go of some of what we considered canon after we found out the ideas were only EU. Really we had to ?unlearn what we had learned? and go back to the movies as the defining source material."
Filoni, Dec. '08

http://www.canonwars.com/SWCanonquotes.html

 

So, the series doesn't expand the universe of the movies, is what you're saying? I'm not talking about canon becase we already know that liscensing has TCW as "T-Canon". Though I suppose on a QWERTY keyboard that's only one up from "G", so maybe it is a typo as you claim.

Anyway, in response to Garth: Thanks.

Even if you look past the whole issue of sensory powers, however, there's still enough in HH to make me moan like a fusspot.

 

Yeah, it's sounding like only parts of the country had this problem.

Unfortunately, it seems like when the episode was uploaded to youtube, it was done so WITH the audio problems.

It is indeed a crisis, and I hope CN realizes there's an issue before they show it as a repeat.

Thanks for the support.

And may the force be with you.

 

It always baffles me when people quote the policies of LFL, a company that clearly wants you to continue to buy their products, instead of Lucas' own statements on where the EU stands.

If you lament the real (Film/TV) Star Wars story not matching the EU, then you are the problem. Period.

 

Cato's lightsaber was clearly explained by Ahsoka's comments. Plus, Filoni confirmed the intention of the scene. Anything else is just kibitzing over fight choreography.

 

The Cato/Ahsoka wasn't that bad, I think my initial comment was that I didn't even think Cato would last that long.

 

Except Yoda did sense deceit.

The Jedi (sometimes) do have this ability, as implied by the ROTS script.

And that has its own implications.

 

With the start of season 2 I again noticed a huge problem with the holoprojectors. I've noticed this in basically every episode one is used, especially season one premiere "Ambush". To see the person on the other end you have to be facing the holoprojector image. How is it that a holoprojection of Yoda for example in "Ambush" turns around to face Ventress? How would he even see her if he is facing his own holoprojector? It doesn't make any sense. Anakin's holoprojection while talking to Obiwan in the temple also looked way to the right when Yoda comes in. Whats up with that?

 

I Knew this was coming, but the thing is this. The Clone Wars is doing somthing that one poster stated in one of the threads. They are mining the EU for material and truing it into the their own. Many people here on the boards are not seeing that. Yeah, they are trying to stay true to the EU but by doing it the other way around.

I also like what poster TCWLetters something said. We should really treat the clone wars like the movies, seperate from the EU. The EU has made things very different, and no matter what we say, and what ret-con is done, these ckone wars are changing the way you look at the end of Episode 2 thru 3. Too much is going on, and this is just the begining of season two. We still have three and four and possibly five.

I for one do not compare this to the first clone war batch. I like clone wars 1.0, but I keep it seperate from this one 2.0. Their both still good. The other problem is that too many fanboys gt caught up with role playing stats, like jetpacks. You can only fly 100 meters vertical and 100 horizontal. Well I don't want to see that crap. You got a jet pack, dammit your flying. No need for those stupid limitations.

I also do not want to se any of the writers limit their story telling becuase of some novel or comic book. If anything, the novel and comic book should feed off the tv material to enhance the era.