The Clone Wars: Episode 204: Senate Spy Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Gry Sarth, Oct 13, 2009.

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  1. Rogue...Jedi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2000
    star 7
    Finally watched this one Friday (i.e., a week after it came out)... and was really disappointed :( Padme and Anakin both seemed a bit out of character, Clovis was meh at best, and Lott Dod... well, way out of character, though we haven't really seen that much of him previously. Still, Padme's fully aware of the hatred Gunray and the Trade Federation have for her, and that just makes the whole thing rather painful to watch, in my opinion.

    And the Jedi Council tracked Padme closely enough pre-AotC to know of her relationship with Clovis, and yet they can't understand Padme's relationship with Anakin? Something seems really off in this episode. :(

    I look forward to the next episode, whenever that is (next week, I think?)
  2. MakingStarWars Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2008
    star 3
    The next episode is November 6th, so not this Friday, but next Friday.
  3. Rogue...Jedi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2000
    star 7
    Yeah, that's what I figured. Halloween and all.
  4. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    So I'm finally getting in some thoughts about this episode......wow, what a dismal effort. Simply the poorest episode to come out thus far. It's impossibly puddled with these notions about the Banking Clan and the Trade Federation not being a full part of the Seperatist forces being lead by Dooku.................unbelivable is the only word that comes to mind.

    Obi-Wan spied on the very meeting where the leadership of the Corporate Alliance presumably signed a treaty with Dooku, now they are back with the Republic.8-}

    Not only is this series erasing parts of the EU from the timeline but the entire Geonosis arc from AOTC's as well. Great job =D=:confused:

    Yeah, somebody could write a story to explain all this, about how Obi-Wan forgot to report his findings to the Republic, about how the Jedi Order forgot to mention that Nute Gunray took part in an attempted exucution of a Republic Senator, how the Republic then declared war on the Seperatist Forces at Geonosis.........

    The entire idea of the Clone Wars is tied up in these simple ideas, about how the Corporate Alliance lead Seperatist army was fighting against the Republic after Geonosis. It makes no sense that the creative team would look to muddle this in any way, shape or form..........

    And remember, don't look toward the rest of the EU to in some way fix this, because it can't. The only question that remains is if AOTC is still canon now, or if The Clone Wars in some way trumps the film itself.[face_laugh] :p [face_dancing]
  5. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Aww, I thought we were getting a halloween special episode.:_|
  6. jedi-soon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2001
    star 2
    Probably my least favorite episode so far. I knew the Anakin-Padme relationship wouldn't be shown as going too far, but since they are generally portrayed as always being separated, it just makes sense to hint that there's a flip side as well. Luke and Leia do need to be conceived, after all! A & P both felt out of character to me. The whole backstory with Clovis just seemed forced.

    However I did get the feeling that Anakin reads these boards, because last season we came up with how he could have easily swiped his lightsaber back from Padme and this time he used that strategy to grab the disc. At least he's getting smarter, hehe.

    I wasn't looking forward to this one, as the portrayal of Padme is too often bogged down in negative female stereotypes. I got that vibe in spades here. CloneUncleOwen's comments back on page 6 hit the nail on the head and were funnier than anything in the episode!

    I wasn't too bothered by the TF/IBC being able to apparently play both sides tho. They're essentially huge conglomerates with unfathomable fortunes and multiple hidden agendas. I don't expect the story to fill us in on every little thing they're up to. Apparently I just don't pay close enough attention to get offended. Ditto with background characters. It was pointed out that kids would enjoy spotting Kit Fisto and Aayla Secura a couple of eps back, but this grown man did too!

    I'm still waiting to see "that business on Cato Nemoidia" that didn't count [face_laugh]

    It was cool to see locales and characters from the PT revisited. The animation and rendering are still very pretty to look at. Some of the darker shots nearly pass for live action. But I want a good story too!
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Covered in LOE... I would hope TCW stays away from this or else we might end up with two different explanations.
  8. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Heeheehee, Obi Wan getting high off of beetle fungus and doing the drunken master style of lightsaber combat.
  9. jedi-soon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2001
    star 2
    Sounds intriguing. Maybe I'll pick that one up!
  10. ZEM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2009
    star 2
    So, if anyone has read any of my previous posts anywhere on this forum, you might know that I am ultimately a loyal fan to the film saga, and none of the EU. A matter of fact, I despise 99.9% of the Expanded Universe.

    The Clone Wars is the only "EU" that I care for, and some episodes seriously trip up, no matter how much I like Star Wars.

    This episode was really difficult for me to watch, because I wanted to like it, being a big Padme Amidala fan, but it just came off as lame in most scenes. As many of you have already pointed out.

    I wasn't sure I liked how Anakin and Padme bickered in the senate, because it seemed really out of character. And the whole deal with Clovis sounded really forced to me too. As far as I'm concerned Padme wasn't ever involved with anyone other than Anakin, after that guy with the dreamy eyes and curly hair...

    The two things that made the episode watchable were the animation and some of the dialouge was hilarious.

    It struck me as real funny how Obi-Wan said, "I've been trying to contact him ALL NIGHT!" [face_laugh]

    Not to mention Clovis, "You can rest your head on my shoulder if you're tired." [face_laugh]
  11. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Now, come on, that's being a bit naive. To think that a beautiful and social person such as Padmé, at the ripe age of 14 to 24 wouldn't have relationships with at least a few men is quite absurd. Anakin was a monk, fair enough, but Padmé was traveling around and meeting all sorts of people.
  12. The_General_Onslow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2005
    star 1
    Okay, I have a couple of problems with the whole Senate Spy episode, and I'm hoping that someone can help me out here, because as a true Star Wars fan, I want this to make sense to me!

    Leaving aside the presence of the Banking Clan (a coalition at war with the Republic) for a moment, here is the rest of my beef:

    The Republic and the CIS are at war. From the perspective of the CIS, Padme is an enemy combatant, and her status as a senator or a diplomat does not negate this. She's held a gun on Nute Gunray, the head of state, for crying out loud. How then is she able to stroll with impugnity onto Cato Neimoidia? Her showing up on any of the Separatist worlds and not being immediately arrested would be hard to swallow, but the fact that this planet happens to be Cato Neimoidia is doubly distressing, considering that the Neimoidians want Padme dead more than any other individual in the Galaxy. My first thought was the old Lethal Weapon chestnut: perhaps "diplomatic immunity" was the answer here. But then I realized that this was BULL plain and simple. This feeble plot device only works if we accept the premise that Joachim von Ribbentrop could have strolled into London during the Blitz and had tea at Buckingham Palace. Perhaps Rudolf Hess shouldn't have been arrested and imprisoned after flying into Scotland after all? Or in Star Wars terms, could Poggle the Lesser stroll into the Senate Building or Coruscant withoug being molested? No, the diplomat thing is weak at best when we're talking about powers that are officially at war.

    The whole "guest of Rush Clovis" thing is equally BULL. So I suppose that during the height of the Iraq War Uday and Qusay could've come to dinner in downtown Manhattan as the guests of some senator spying for the enemy? Sorry, but again, this doesn't hold water.

    Leaving aside the fact that the CIS and the Republic are at war and have suspended diplomatic communication, are we to assume that the Neimoidians are honorable enough to honor such agreements under any circumstances? The whole Star Wars saga, from the movies, to the cartoon, to the comics, to the novels, to the Clone Wars series itself, has never ceased to drive home the points that the Neimoidians are without honour and will stoop to any level to nail someone they hate, and that to the Neimoidians, Padme Amidala is Public Enemy # 1, and that they would waste her the first chance they got. Her hanging around on Cato Neimoidia, and being poisoned not so much to kill her as to put Clovis over a barrel in terms of negotiations, makes little sense in this regard.

    Anyone have an explanation for this that doesn't involve either of the weak explanations advanced above (i.e. "diplomatic immunity" and "guest of Clovis")? Her status as an enemy dignitary might have saved her from being shot in the street like a dog, but it wouldn't have saved her from being seized and arrested on sight as a spy, as so many other diplomats have been during wartime over the years.
  13. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Well, I'm going to play devil's advocate here, because I don't agree or like any of the explanations I'm about to give.

    Why wasn't Padmé captured upon arrival at Cato Neimoidia? Well, the thing to consider is that we have three different entities here, which do not equate the same thing: The planet Cato Neimoidia, The Trade Federation, and the Neimoidian species. The Neimoidians, as you say, don't necessarily want Padmé dead. Only Nute Gunray, viceroy of the Trade Federation, does. Cato Neimoidia is still part of the Republic. But most shockingly, the Trade Federation is still part of the Republic as well. I guess the explanation is that Nute Gunray has been acting without the consent and support of the rest of the Trade Federation, so they manage to be part of both the Republic and the CIS (bogus, I know).

    So, the answer to your question is that the Neimoidians as a people are NOT at war with the Republic. Cato Neimoidia as a planet is also NOT at war with the Republic. And even the Trade Federation still holds some credibility inside the Senate.

    Suddenly there's a whole lot less War in the Clone Wars...
  14. CaptainYossarian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2003
    star 3
    The TF and others were meeting with Dooku and pledging support for the Separatists, yet that was before the war started. After they escaped Geonosis they would have denied any outright involvement with the CIS but continue to support them in secret. Obi-Wan observed them on Geonosis and so the Jedi know that those corporations are dodgy, yet the Senate is hesitant to take their word for it. No one is keen to do any proper investigating, and there is of course Palpatine to convince everyone the TF should be allowed to stay and to thwart any investigations. The Jedi themselves do not want to be too blatant (ie when they investigate Clovis) for fear of causing an incident. So at that point in the war, there are enough people in the Senate who are prepared to believe that the TF and others are still with the Republic, and they may be willing to overlook certain issues in order to keep them there.

    The TF may have wanted Padme dead but that does not mean that they will always try to kill her at any opportunity. The TF are still in the Republic and want to keep their CIS dealings secret. Padme is there on Cato Neimoidia as a Senator and so trying to kill or capture her is disadvantageous. If she goes there and returns unharmed then it proves to everyone in the Republic that the TF is trustworthy and still loyal. Killing her there and then would have messed up all their plans for nothing. They wanted to stay with the Republic and so had no reason to kill Padme at that point. They only planned to poison her as a way of gaining control over Clovis.
  15. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Yeah, that's the story. Whether you like it or not...

    It's just very hard to swallow the whole Trade Federation neutrality issue, when the backbone of the Separatist fleet consists of ships like the "Trade Federation Battleship" and the leader of the whole organization is a wanted criminal who even got arrested in the show.

    And to make matters worse, from Dave's FanDays3 script, it seems that even after this new Geonosis debacle they will still remain "neutral" because Anakin didn't bring Clovis to testify on the Senate. So it counts for nothing that Padmé has the whole plans for the secret factory, which presumably came from Lott Dod's files and should have all sorts of incriminating data on at least the Trade federation and Banking Clan?
  16. The_General_Onslow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2005
    star 1
    Thanks for trying, but like you said, if that's the best the writers can do, that's bogus. It's kind of like saying that the UK wasn't at war with the Third Reich or the German people, just Hitler and the Nazi regime. Cato Neimoidia is controlled by the Trade Federation, it's a Separatist world, and was eventually invaded by the Republic (according to its entry on starwars.com, Obi Wan's dialogue and the death of Plo Koon in ROTS, and numerous battles depicted in the E.U.)...saying that the planet, or that the TF itself, is still a functioning part of the Republic is contradictory to all that's been previously established, and just comes off as sloppy "I don't give a crap about continuity" writing on the part of Filoni and company. The same can be said of the Banking Clan, even after the Republic invasion of Muunilinst. I'm not criticizing you, I know you said you don't even like the explanations you've advanced, but having Padme on that world was just lame on the part of the series writers.


    Okay, this is about as solid an explanation as anyone is likely to give for this crap. Well done. But it's still a long way from clearing up all the continuity issues and plotholes created by this episode. So far, everything we've been told in the Star Wars continuity indicates that certain systems sec
  17. LittleMissNightsaber Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2009
    star 3
    What seems weird to me is how Anakin was like in Senate Spy. He says duty before love (a.k.a duty is more important than love) and in Hostage Crisis, he asks Padmé 'Isn't our love more important?'
    When I first saw the trailer of Clone Wars Season 2 where you see Padmé leap into Clovis's arms, I was hoping he had seduced her or something. That would have have funny. Better than the old friends thing.
  18. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Anakin may say that duty comes before love, but that doesn't mean that's what he really believes in. That's just the excuse he used in that moment.
  19. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    As is clearly evident when Padme throws it right back at him and Anakin looks like he's shooting lightsabers out of his eyes.

    Priceless. [face_laugh]
  20. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    As I had previously stated, it's pretty clear this is the worst piece of crap in all of TCW and the less we talk about it, the less its glaring inconsistencies will continue to haunt my existence.[face_monkey]
  21. Dunedain1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2003
    star 2
    I liked the political intrigue and intelligence gathering/spying in this episode, this is something we don't see enough of in The Clone Wars. :) There are some problems, as others have pointed out, with the risk involved in Padme doing this sort of thing and whether it would be sensible. But I guess it came down to the fact that she knew this person and thus would be more likely to able to snoop around and get the needed information to confirm he was involved in treasonous activity.
  22. Seinfelddvd Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2009
  23. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I actually like the Fan Days Script, which I'm just seeing for the first time now. Granted, I would rather they never introduced the idea of neutrality, since it's convoluted (whereas the story of SW is usually straight forward and accessible) but it's still plausible. What I don't find plausible though is that the Republic, after occupying Geonosis, would hand it back to the local population during war time when they previously allied themselves with the enemy. I mean if during the American Civil War it's not like the Union would drive the Confederate Army out of a Confederate state, call it good enough and leave.
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