Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 207: Legacy of Terror Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Guess I should have expected a full-blown Aliens rip-off, since they've been dropping direct references every other episode or so. I was half expecting the queen to detach from the egg layer and give chase! Throwing zombies into the mix set the concept apart from Cameron's a bit more. I was surprised to hear the word "zombies" actually mentioned in the show. There was a time that that word couldn't even be mentioned in code-approved comic books!

Was hoping to get a break from Anakin this time out, but oh well. The characters were handled well. Great banter, as already noted by many. Obi-wan rules, as always! He really had me going in the scene with Luminara and the worm. He seemed at times to mirror Bishop Hendrickson's role in the original. In fact, I suspect the "rumored Queen" plot element was derived from Lance's line "It must be something we haven't seen yet." Ironic, considering how Obi seems mostly indifferent to droids!

I get all the complaints about the queen speaking basic, and agree in general. However, them being able to communicate back and forth conversationally differentiated her a bit from the Aliens queen.

The animation, character moves, sandstorm, lighting etc. is all so well presented at this point that it seems redundant to keep mentioning it, but I don't want to take it for granted. The speeders did seem a little sluggish in a few of the shots tho.

Still can't figure out why or even how a bound Poggle would just accompany his captors up the tunnel to the surface, especially if he can't really fly. Force coercion, I suppose. Anakin's journey with Palpatine and an unconscious Obi-wan thru the elevator shaft in ROTS was similarly goofy.

Overall I liked it, but I was really spoiled by Landing. The high water mark of the series so far, for me. I really dig on those big battles!

Seems like more spoilers for future episodes are leaking in here.. I watch the episodes online now and don't even catch the CN preview for next week's. I enjoy them more when they're complete surprises. But I guess it doesn't really register as a spoiler if it airs at the end of the episode on TV. I remember chatting up Cad Bane a fair bit after his preview!

I can't agree here. I don't want the pace of a story slowed to explain every little thing.

Gotta go with Crowe and Wierzbowski, since they both bought it!

 

Well then I won't waste my time replying. Sheesh.

 

Luminara trussed up at the Queen's throne is undoubtedly the BEST posture she has ever been in. Probably the highlight of the whole thing.

Whoever decided to put Luminara in jeopardy in this episode, well done!!

Could we have more Luminara-episodes like this one?

 

Apparently you haven't been here long if you couldn't tell I was joking.

 

Yeah, I mean, I largely enjoyed this episode for the most part... but I'm still sick of Geonosis and I echo the TFN reviewers sentiments about the bounty hunters. For being so hyped up, the momentum for them went away very quickly. And we've yet to see Sugi, Embro or Bossk.

Granted, I know we've only seen about 6 episodes out of 22 thus far... so never mind then. We still have some time.

 

I think that's the whole point, so we sort of anticipate their return(I too wish we would see some bounty hunter action again) As much as I liked this arc, I'm ready for something else now.

 

I quite like the idea of having one massive scale arc. Invasion, occupation and the next episode looks like it's something we have yet to see in TCW, the victorious pulling out of a conquered planet. So long as we don't have some rubbish excuse for reusing the art assets in future episodes, which I'm sure we won't, then I'm perfectly happy with this four part (Five if you want to include Senate Spy) story arc.

And I was opposed to the Bounty Hunter theme the series seemed to be taking ever since Comic Con. I just prefer the feel of a slightly more mixed bag of events in a season. So the fact that we have had a breather before the onslaught of bounty hunters start hunting bounty again is quite a relief for me. I hope we get another one in the second half of the season, even if it's only two episodes long!

 

Someone said: "When Obi Wan started talking to the queen and it looked as if she would reply, I remember thinking to myself "please, please, please don't speak Basic...", which she immediately did. LAME (especially since Poggle still speaks Geonosian in the show). That was just lazy on the part of the writers. What makes me sad is the fact that I was able to predict that laziness. "

How is that laziness on the part of the writers? They'd have still written her dialogue in English even if she spoke Geonosian and had subtitles. And they wouldn't have tried to phonetically spell out the Geonosian words. So how is it lazy on their part? The only way I can see it is if you mean that by having her speak Basic they wouldn't have to deal with the question of "how will our heroes understand her."

But they are also under time constraints regarding the length of each episode. It could simply be that the writers, perhaps being more competent than many here assume, actually thought about all of these things during the writing and production process, but simply didn't have enough show-time to include another solution.

That goes for many other "plot holes" and such that many of you bring up. First of all, most of them aren't holes. They're just bits of background information and character motivation that we're curious about at the least, and help to explain why the characters do things that ultimately lead them into trouble or don't on the surface appear to be the best course of action at the most. They aren't actual holes. [Anakin's saber on Florrum...that was a hole.]

Second, the show is 22 minutes long. They don't have time to explain all of these little details for us (the big fans who are almost exclusively the ones who wonder/worry about such things).

And if they took the time to explain everything some of us want explained, they wouldn't have time to tell very engaged and engaging stories.



Regarding all Geonosians dying with the queen: There are a couple of assumptions that must be made to reach that conclusion:
1. That only the queen lays eggs, or she is in some other way essential to Geonosian reproduction.
2. That she actually died.
3. That she was, at that time, the only queen.
4. That it's not possible that when one queen dies, some pherenome is sent out (or is no longer sent out) [or some other explanation] causing a new queen to develop.

At this time, I'd say none of those propositions can be firmly held.


But then again, SW fans are bad for assuming aren't we?
"Poggle looks like the Geonosian boss in Ep2, so he must really be the boss with no one outranking him."
"Mustafar is like this secluded planet that none of the heroes know of or go to until Ep3."
"The writers didn't think of what I thought of."


BTW, even if that was the only queen, she's needed for all Geonosian reproduction, she's dead, and there won't be another, then what happened wouldn't be genocide. They didn't kill an entire race. They killed a handful of members of that race, including the one needed for procreation. So that's still bad. But it isn't genocide.



Regarding the names Kenobi uses to adress the queen, and the use of "Lord Poggle": It's another stinking galaxy folks. And although Basic is, by an amazing coincidence, almost exactly like 20th and 21st century English, I guess these are a few of the differences.

I just don't see this as nearly enough of an issue to complain about. But that's me.




Regarding the use of "empire": Remember, Basic isn't English. So looking at Webster's, while very helpful in the real world (precisely defined terms help us communicate better), doesn't solve an issue regarding Basic.

I personally think that if she ruled the entire planet (or maybe even most of it), she'd be justified in calling it an Empire. (Especially since we don't know the history of the thing...maybe she beat out all opposing nations on Geonosis years ago.) (And, it seems unlikely she's ever been off world. So her perspective might be a bit different, although she clearly knows of the galaxy outside the planet.)

But for those sti

 

That goes for many other "plot holes" and such that many of you bring up. First of all, most of them aren't holes. They're just bits of background information and character motivation that we're curious about at the least, and help to explain why the characters do things that ultimately lead them into trouble or don't on the surface appear to be the best course of action at the most. They aren't actual holes.

Speaking ONLY for myself, speculation on those "missing" things is not necessarily criticising the show (though it may well be at times).

Sometimes I just wonder what other fans think.

 

Fair enough. The problem is, if they're going to use an English system of hierarchical/royal rankings, why not use it properly? Why is that too much to ask?

They've used "Your Graces" for the Jedi and now for a Queen?


With respect to Karina speaking Basic, I agree it's not a question of laziness. But since we already have some idea of the "click, click, whirrrrr" language of the Geonosians, why not have the Queen use that language with her weird screams?

Star Wars have been complaining for a long time that too many aliens since the PT era speak Basic. When you get aliens like Greedo, Sebulba, Jabba, even the Ewoks speaking in their own tongues, with or without subtitles, it really sells the GFFA as a real universe.

You can't even really argue that Karina needed to be able to speak Basic as the ruler of her planet, because she was completely hidden and Poggle was the visible face of the Geonosian elite.


With TCW, I had no problem with, say, Senator Chuchi and King whatever speaking Basic, but if the Talz had spoken Basic, the entire episode wouldn't have been as effective.

 

If the Jedi/Clones had translation droids... or even a very smart clone who was bred to speak a thousand languages or something... then the writers wouldn't have to have every alien speak in English. It's getting to be like Star Trek... TCW needs to rewatch Episode 4 and see how many different alien voices are in that one.

Why wouldn't they have some kind of translator on these missions with them. Perhaps someone who isn't even battle trained, yet still goes on these missions and worries about getting killed 1/2 the time.

 

The so-called "laziness" of the writers in having the queen speak basic is not regarding the writing of the dialogue itself, but the further development of the script in order to find a solution that wouldn't require her to speak english. If subtitles are really out of the question (and I weep for the united statian youth if they're that illiterate) then there are other ways of conveying her dialogue. For example, my idea of having her talk through a worm-possessed Buzz.

 

GM, the fact that they'd already used "your grace" in a way that's inconsistent with the real world might have clued us in to the possibility that they aren't intending to use it properly. Again you might ask "why not?" And that's a fair question...one I don't know the answer to. But it seems clear that for whatever reason they aren't trying to strictly follow real world English-speaking diplomatic protocol.

I for one am OK with that. I really don't consider it to be an issue.

Truth is, I didn't even know that it was a misuse until it was brought up here. So I just did some checking. According to wikipedia (which granted isn't perfectly reliable) "His Grace or Her Grace is a style used for various high ranking personages. It was the style used to address the King or Queen of Scotland up to the Act of Union of 1707, which merged the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland, and to address monarchs of England prior to Henry VIII."

I'd say "a long time ago" is before 1707.

And if we want to say "it says 'His/Her Grace' not 'Your Grace'" then it just looks like we're trying to be difficult.


I also didn't have trouble with supposedly many aliens in the PT speaking basic. Let's see...
The Gungans (a peculiar dialect of it)
Fode (but Beed was speaking Hutteese)
Wald (but not Greedo)
Trade Federation folks (they're traders, and some are in the Senate, this isn't surprising)
The helium sniffing Gran senator ("a commission must be appointed")
Zam Wessel (also spoke Hutteese)
Kaminoans
San Hill
Wat Tambor
Chairman of Utapau (who also spoke another language)

I may be forgetting some, but that's all I can think of. When I think of all the other aliens in the PT who didn't speak basic, I just don't see a strong argument here. Yeah, there are more aliens who speak Basic in the PT than the OT. But there are also more aliens in the PT than in the OT.

I'm not saying I hate it when aliens speak another language. I'm just saying that I don't see the claim.

So the queen spoke Basic...maybe there's an in-universe reason.



Gry, I like your idea. But there are at least 2 plot related complications.

1. If the queen (who presumably doesn't know Basic) can speak directly through a clone in basic, that raises several issues that might be problematic down the road. First, that would suggest that when a worm goes in, she suddenly gains all the knowledge of the person being taken over. While that could be interesting, it could also prove problematic for stories down the road (maybe even the next episode). Second, it suggests that she has total complete direct control over any being a worm gets into, regardless of physiology. Again, interesting things could be done with that. On the other hand, it could prove to be problematic for stories down the line.

2. The queen isn't supposed to know the clones are still there. That's how the heroes get out, by the clones coming out of hiding, taking the bugs by surprise, blinding them, etc. If she takes over a clone, then she knows that at least one of them (the one taken over) is still there. (The heroes also know at the beginning of the conversation with the queen that she has some sort of mind control ability. That might not be a problem, but it does reorder the scene a bit.) So then the writers have to come up with another way to get the heroes out. And while you might be ok with that, the issue arises of what that way of escape would be, and if there'd be enough time to show it.


See that's the other thing. Using your idea would take time in the show. You have to show the thing getting into his nose (which might damage the joke later in the episode...Kenobi and Anakin might not know where it goes, but we would), you'd need to have an explanation for the audience and the Jedi and Clones as to what's going on. The characters would need to react to this revelation that one of their own has been taken over by this enemy. You might even have to show what happens to that clone. Do they shoot him? Do the Jedi cut him in half? Do they leave him?


All of this because some fans would rather the qu

 

Now that's an analysis of the consequences of "tinkering" or "going the 'easy' route" I can get behind. Well done!

 

Well posted, WedgeWalker. Always hard to dispute your well developed arguments. Still doesn't make me like the queen, though. Not so much for her basic-speaking, but more because of her uninventive alien queen look. If the only problem with her was the fact that she spoke basic, I wouldn't have given it much thought. But it's the compunding of several problems that make her a huge detriment to an otherwise excellent episode:

- She speaks basic
- Her voice is annoying
- She has the alien queen's crest
- She has the alien queen's oversized worm body
- She has the alien queen's multiple limbs
- She has the alien queen's screech
- She has the alien queen's introductory shot (starting from her egg-laying end, and moving on to reveal the rest)
- She has a mundane name (Karina) that doesn't fit with the other "alien" geonosian names

So if we had just a couple of these points, I'd let it pass. But all of these together made for one of the less enjoyable aspects of the show so far, in my opinion.

 

This had to be one of the most interesting episodes so far, and the strangest. Obi-Wan and Anakin having to explore this creepy underground lair and then running into these really weird half-dead alien bug freaks that are being controlled through some sort of mental link with their leader. Obi-Wan and Anakin were understandably creeped out by such disgusting creatures.

This huge queen of the Geonosians was quite bizarre and repulsive. It was funny how Anakin was like, "You don't actually want to talk to this thing, do you?", and Obi-Wan had to remind him that sometimes it's better to talk than to charge in lightsabers blazing without getting any information first. I really like the informal fun banter with Obi-Wan and Anakin, who we have to remember are best friends who have been training, fighting and going on daring missions all over the galaxy together for over 10 years, hope to see much more of this kind of interaction in future episodes.

The funniest part was when Obi-Wan wanted to bet with Anakin on how these strange worms that he was curious about got inside someone's head. haha Obi-Wan is certainly cool under pressure!!

 

Well, there wasn't a whole lot of Basic going on in Mos Eisley Cantina. The rest of ANH they were amongst humans anyway.


Think about how much cooler the Neimoidians and Gungans would have been if they didn't speak Basic - of course, I love Nute Gunray the way he is.

 

Do you guys think that the thing keeping the geonosians alive was the same virus in the book Death Troopers?

 

I would say that they are perhaps not the same thing. Calling the Jedi 'Your Graces' may be meant more generally in the sense that they are gracious, rather than referring to a specific title. I don't think anyone's ever called a Jedi 'Your Grace' outright, have they?

I agree with that, and they specifically made it part of the episode that they had to find other ways to communicate. With an episode like Legacy of Terror though, if they had aliens only speaking their own language it would only be the scenes with the queen that posed a problem, and they are quite a small part of the episode. With Poggle there is the convenient Tactical Droid to repeat things for the benefit of the audience (like "No, the super tanks are not ready") but if Karina only spoke Geonosian then the Jedi would have to understand her somehow. Either they would have to simply understand her language to some degree, or have some way of translating.

I think it would not be good for the show if they Jedi or clones simply had a Star Trek style 'Univeral Translator' because that may mean the end for any outright alien languages since whenever Republic forces meet aliens, they'll always be able to perfectly understand them straight away.

With the queen speaking Basic I don't think it is too much of a problem and it probably was done to make it simpler for the few scenes where she spoke. And at least they made the effort to give her a distinctive voice rather than just have her able to speak perfect Basic. Perhaps another consideration was the need to make the queen into a proper character. If she only spoke Geonosian then that, combined with her immobility, may have just made her look like a big monster rather than an intelligent being and a ruler. It may have made her seem less active in the story if she could not converse directly with those threatening her and you would not get such a sense of it being her plan to use the zombies that she controls.

I suppose they could have made a compromise by having the Jedi partially understand the queen, or simply sense her intent by how she behaves and reacts, and then repeat it for the audience's benefit. So when Obi-Wan tells the queen her rule is over she could shout something at him in Geonosian and then he says something to Anakin like "I don't think she's going to give up that easily". And for other things it could be done visually by having the queen give orders to Poggle etc and then show him carry them out, like when they give the brain worm to Luminara, and the Jedi could comment on those actions.

I think that in the end though, the episodes are only 22 minutes long and the queen was only really in the second half and didn't do too much talking anyway. So I think having her speak English was just the quickest way to play those scenes. Doing it another way would have meant more time, more shots and more animation. It seems like the show has to make savings somewhere so they take an easier option when it comes to characters like Queen Karina but then take the opportunity to have less easy communication in other episodes such as with the Talz in Trespass.

 

Haven't read Death Troopers, but I'd be surprised if they linked different SW media together like that.

Plus, the Geonosian zombies were kept alive(?)/possessed by the Ceti Alpha Worms, not a virus.

 

Many insect queens on our world have an oversized worm body.

Is that bad?

 

I would say that they are perhaps not the same thing. Calling the Jedi 'Your Graces' may be meant more generally in the sense that they are gracious, rather than referring to a specific title. I don't think anyone's ever called a Jedi 'Your Grace' outright, have they?

Palps in his office, AoTC, refers to the collective Jedi as "Your Graces."

Such a fountain of miscellaneous info I can be.

 

I know. But the fact is that Aliens has already explored this idea of taking an established alien species and adding an oversized worm-like body to make a queen. So in the cinematic realm, it's an used idea. If you want to tackle it, you should make it original enough that it doesn't come out like a ripoff.

In itself it's not bad. But it's yet another drop of unoriginality in the big pond that is this queen. As I said before, using a few of those elements I mentioned would be ok, but it's the accumulation of all of them that irks me. It would have been all right if they had just made her bloated and worm-like as many other insects, as long as they didn't add the whole rest of the kit, opting instead for some original elements.

 

Meh. The design of the Queen doesn't bother me at all. It's all the voice.


Although I was definitely reminded of the Slurm Queen the way her tail works.