Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 310: Heroes On Both Sides Discussion Thread

So, swahbucklingjedi, you're saying that Palpatine needs to be a canon sue? That everything just needs to fall into place for him to succeed? Every needs to act like they have an IQ of 2 and events need to bend to make him appear smarter? For once, I want to him to hit a snag, to fail for a moment and seriously think about how he can recover (of course, he does, but simply having him be an unflappable, infallible strategist is so BORING). The end result of the story isn't an excuse for bad writing.

And fyi, I watch this show so I can criticize things. It's my natural state. To take me away from things I hate is to take a fish from water.

Also, the Republic needs to act like an actual government. Assassinations, backroom deals, and the like happen all the time. And sometimes, guess what, they're not the evil overlords attacking the good guys. Sometimes they are good guys (or anti-heroes) doing what is necessary to protect their civilization. Much of the world's civilization is built and maintained by these people, not Gandhi copycats. For once, I'd like to see Loyalist Republic senators act differently than being expies of Kofi Annan. Get their hands dirty. They're fighting for the Republic, yet at times, it seems like they really aren't.

 

I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again: this isn't true. Palpatine's plots hit sizeable roadblocks in the movies, in this series, and all throughout the EU. He's not infallible, he's not a canon sue.

 

Well your point of view is so far away from mine that this cannot go any further as friendly debate about fiction- we have so different political views i just cannot agree with you- and if you think so about real life as well- my point of view is that you are evil -really -i cannot accept your views at all- you are actually saying that -not only fictional- but even real pacifists and peacekeepers are stupid...... unbelievable- i don't really see this "good world" maintained by "good guys" i'm definitely not happy with the real world today - and i don't want to blame anyone but just now i think i know who is responsible from all this existing evil ... people like your "good guys" and people like you...

^I'm sorry that my last comment went too far- but i'm just so pissed off by Falon Windrider's comment that i felt as personal attack- because i am -what you could call- a pacifist of sort - in Finland every male has to go to the army or civilian service i chose civilian service because it's only way to avoid jail here- i won't accept violence in real world because good and bad are not possible to define so easily only in extreme situations it may be a right choice- these are really sensitive subjects to speak about- i wish that no one says anything like "pacifists are stupid" anymore i don't think it's a mature way to have a conversation about fictional animation series anyway....

 

Just rejoin, no. But why would moderate Seps rejoin without additional incentive? They presumably left for a reason. The second one system gets special treatment in rejoining, they'll all want it and the loyal Republic citizens will see themselves being treated unfairly compared to a bunch of traitors. Even if everyone's too busy freaking to notice during the war, if those systems are still getting perks after the war ends, huge political problem. If their perks expire at the end of the war, guess who has motivation to make sure the Seps don't lose too quickly?

I speak of Palpatine's involvement like he's running both sides and has zero intention of letting the war end until he has all the power he wants. He has all the information, controls all the strategy, can order anyone to be anywhere at any time. As far as the war is concerned, god is not an inappropriate analogy for what he is. And he succeeded mainly because his enemies didn't realize he was who they should be fighting until it was almost too late.

Politics 101, right. Explains the constant stream of political assassinations in western politics then. Politics is a dirty game, but it has rules, and the why is very simple: it's better for everyone if there are some lines people won't cross. Fear is a two-edged sword: go too far and everyone else throws you under the bus so they don't have to be afraid of you anymore. If someone in our system, now, starting using assassination to get ahead, the rest of the politicians would freak and commit every resource of the government to finding out who and locking them up for fear they'd be next. The assassination of the Serbian PM by the mob in 2003 is case in point: it triggered a massive crackdown on organized crime.

 

After my political frustration i try to continue normal conversation.....

I agree Padmé is bit naive but that's because she is idealist- she is not stupid she just don't know Palpatine cannot be trusted -Palpy can be very convincing- it's not easy to saw through him in-universe- it's easy to say when you know he is sidious... actually palpatine nearly failed in this episode and i think it's enough of not making him Canon Sue....
I think show should portray different characters and more republic senators with militarists too....


and it seems that embarassing error in the episode guide (erroneous reference of Raxus Prime being in this episode) was corrected- only Raxus was in this episode -Raxus Prime is different world the junkplace from Tfu and eu- but probably has something to do with this Raxus- i think this Raxus could go in Raxus system with Raxus Prime and Raxus II but we have to wait for canonical explanation.

 

Yeah i classified Halle Burtoni wrong -as well as Deechi- they are just like separatists corrupted people leading themselves and their own people to the destruction... well don't know about Deechi but Burtoni did exactly the same as seppies- as seen in Battlefront2 kaminoans rebelled and rebellion was put down with violence.

It seems that imperials decided to get their money back by force- during the Clone Wars banks were deregulated as this episode shows- republic took loans from the banking clan and Empire was actually probably indebted to IGBC- after all IGBC was only seppie organization that avoided nationalization and muuns were not enslaved or discriminated according to EU at least.... money however went to the kamino because of clones of course- so empire decided to took it back- kaminoans weren't happy and empire decided to attack- i think continuity works quite well in this. Tfu2 shows imperial kamino with no kaminoans on charge and imperial Cato Neimoidia- poor neimoidians how embarassing to them- they have to tell how empire freed them from "oppressive overlords" and how neimoidians are not smart enough to run their own planet the voice in game actually sounds like Lott Dod- wow would be delicious irony - if tfu2 would've been better game with longer plot it would've been awesome i loved these imperialised PT-worlds- i hope liveaction will show more of them... imperial Naboo, Geonosis, Mandalore, Utapau or Ryloth would be wonderful to see in liveaction series

 

He is possibly one of modern films biggest canon sues. He is the only character in the entire Prequel universe who has a decent IQ, political acumen, or any sort of strategic thinking. Every character grabs the idiot ball in his presence.

 

Just watched the episode again, and I think I've enjoyed it a bit more this time. It's a pretty solid episode, with some wonderful scenery and politics that you can actually take seriously.

The droid attack actually reminded me of that rampaging cyborg in Robocop. Wonderful sequence.

 

Sir, with all due respect, I offered a sizeable list of examples in which Palpatine's plans have been delayed or foiled outright (in the relevant prequel thread) and you seemed uninterested in a discussion that might lead to a conclusion that differs from your own beliefs.

If you're not interested in compromise or discourse, why bother getting in these debates at all? The fact remains that there are canon examples of Palpatine's failures in the G-canon movies, the T-canon series, and the C-canon EU. I could probably bury you alive with the examples.

The other fact remains that Palpatine is the secret heir to the Sith traditions, capable of shielding his presence in the Force and the beneficiary of incredible prescience. His accomplishments aren't just the result of a highly capable intellect, but also the galaxy's most powerful Force user. It's a combination of many factors, not just "lulz palpy's smart and everyone else is stupid lawl."

 

He succeeds brilliantly in manipulating people but that goes way too far...

(Since you specified film, and then the PT on top of that)
Padme decides to go back to Naboo, directly against his attempts to manipulate her to stay.
OW doesn't trust him and notes he's a good manipulator.
The Jedi Council tries to get someone to spy on him.
There's a whole opposition wing in the Senate to his policies.

 

This ep was in the "meh" side. I didn't find Padme's mentee all that interesting in design, voice (Catherine Hepburn) or actions. She said she admired Dooku, but for what? Her little son was so uncool, how could Ashoka possibly be interested in him?

I liked how they balanced the robot attack with the politics, but I wold have liked a 50/50 split, rather than 75% politics and 25% action scenes.

I do agree that Palpatine seems to win everything until ROTJ, but isn't that the point?

Did they re-do Palpatine for this ep? He looked a little more evil and pointy.

 

The point is to show how Palpatine came to power. Why does that have to be a contrived plot where all the heroes act idiotic and naive?

 

I'm not really sure if Filoni just grabbed a buzz word -- bank deregulation -- and ran with it for the sake of simplifying politics for the kids that this show is targeted at or not. I'm still trying to decipher the political ideology of the Republic as a whole.

 

Now this is Star Wars! Tremendous episode, best this season and easily in my personal top ten. I love the new character designs and the darker tone, Revenge of the Sith seems to be lurking over every shot. This was a brilliantly put together episode. The editing was extremely well done with a lot of great wipes quickly, and seamlessly, bringing us into the next scene. The sound design simply rocked. Much more aggressive and fully encompassing it really made the episode feel like a part of the cinematic Star Wars. Great stuff.

Season three has been a bit of a mixed bag so far but more episode like this will make up for it.

 

^Yeah, I know I've been wondering about the aftermath of the Zillo beast. How exactly would Palpatine cover up for something like that? And then we hear about it being cloned..

 

Yeah...and we can't blame the anachronistic order in which the episodes are aired, because the characters clearly look older.

 

Zillo duo don't really fit well at all- dead of the beast was not relevant reason to prevent use of the zilloarmors- well that was the point- they needed to kill it -now the research just began they have the body of the beast what heck happened to armorproject why clones or stormtroopers don't have zilloarmor- or spaceships cloning the beast is not important- what Palpy is thinking? Zilloclonearmy ... zillo beast needs more sequels to explain why they couldn't copy the armor of the beast to the use of military?.. still zillo was not enemy just giant beast so cis attack is big thing because it was made by enemy- intelligent dangerous enemy CIS- Zillo may have been intelligent but it's not enemy of the republic just beast that was in the wrong place at wrong time...

 

I disagree with this, and not only because as viewers, we're privy to every one of his schemes and plots. We know a heck of a lot more than any characters in universe.

I'm still of the belief that Palpatine was taking his biggest risk with Anakin in ROTS. I think he felt that if he couldn't sway Anakin when Mace was about to deliver the death blow, he was willing to die, but that he was so sure that his manipulations of Anakin had worked that wouldn't happen. If he'd miscalculated, I believe he would have died in that moment. I think Sidious' plans didn't always work out, but he did always have five backups.

 

that's because these "Intelligent heroes" of yours are actually villains by Star Wars-standards - star wars sends antimilitaristic message and people supporting violence are evil- you cannot change the ideals of Lucas and others- if you cannot accept that view of the universe then please stop watching Star Wars....

And your point is not true actually- many times in TCW good guys manage to prevent Sidious sinister plots- for example in the Children of the Force- Anakin- future villain himself- with help of Ahsoka destroys Palpy's project to make darksideslaves to his service- that's definitely outwitting Sidious.

Another one was mentioned already Zillo beast was intelligent and it saw through palpatine's peaceful facade- he wanted to destroy him- but we know what they did to poor zillo - that sounds like joke but Filoni confirms it to be true in commentary of episode..... JarJar also is thing that Palpatine cannot predict- in Bombad Jedi Nute Gunray was captured and that was against Palpy's plans- that's why they had to send Ventress and Arguys to save him before TF:s dealings are revealed or even worse -something from Sidious. Satine was not killed as Sidious hoped- one more failure to his plans

You can claim whatever you want Windrider- but that doesn't make them true or even canon -stop lying please and you should definitely stop watching this series and star wars completely because you don't get the point at all

I agree - it seems to me that mr. Windrider disagree not only with us- but with the very creators of this series- as long as George Lucas and Dave Filoni are making Star Wars it seems that he cannot be happy with it- he is entitled his own opinion- no one have to like anything- but this debate is pointless....

 

Great episode - the new models are stunning, and the detail and depth of the backgrounds was so far beyond earlier Little Ithor efforts that it could almost be a new series.

As to the relative impact of the Zillo Beast versus the attack on the power plant, well, we don't know how much of Coruscant was affected in the latter. While dramatic, Zillo rampaged down a dozen streets and several levels of a planet-wide city, he couldn't have affected, even indirectly, the tiniest fraction of a percent of Coruscant's population. OTOH a prolonged nighttime power cut over even a small but significant proportion of a cityplanet that's thousands of levels deep, that's millions and potentially billions of folk affected. No light, no lifts, no doors, maybe not even any air in the deeper or more enclosed areas. Serious, serious business.

 

The difference with the Zillo Beast attack is that it was a "natural" disaster. Assuming Palpatine acted as usual, people had no one to blame for that, so it didn't decrease the sense of security or escalate the war. Compare it to something like Katrina vs 9/11, they were both tragedies on roughly the same scale, yet which one made the americans feel terribly unsafe and decide to go to war for it?

 

You answered your own question: the Zillo beast is not a Separatist plot or weapon.
Plus, the points that Tordelback made by the power outage affecting a great deal more of the populace.
PLUS, the point Gry Sarth made!