Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 311: Pursuit of Peace Discussion Thread

I have a question and perhaps it's been answered before so pardon me if it has.

Why are the Neimoidians still a part of the senate in this show? Aren't they with the separatists?

When I saw the Neimoidians in the senate I was a bit confused.

 

I'll pardon you, cause this certainly HAS been discussed to death around here. Why, oh why is the Trade Federation, Banking Clan and who knows what other Separatist groups still part of the Republic Senate?

Short answer: Because.

Long(er) answer: Cause Lucas wants them to.

 

It made sense back when the EU took the original AOTC script and made the IBC neutral.

It made slightly less sense when TCW also established the TF as a neutral corporation, but at least Lott Dod fixed the confusion up somewhat in Supply Lines when he outwardly accused Gunray and his followers as company members gone rogue.

It made absolutely zilch sense when that IBC dude in Pursuit of Peace flat-out told Padme that they just fixed a deal with the Separatists.

 

That's what I mean Barriss and Gry, the latter episodes seem to suggest people know they're with the seppies yet they still appear in the senate...whaa?

I still love the show. And these political episodes can be really good, but sometimes it seems like the writers step on their own toes.

 

Basically, here's the deal with the TF and IBC in The Clone Wars: It started out as a small plot point that the TF still had a prescence in the Senate in Senate Spy. This was hotly contested but accepted by the fans. Then LFL turned the small ant hole they created into a larger ditch by having the TF appear in the Senate again in Supply Lines.

They dug themselves deeper in Sphere of Influence with the blockade of possible-CIS-aligned-but-still-Republic Neimoidians. Then the hole got massive in Heroes on Both Sides when the IBC was revealed to be in the Republic, as well as the Corporate Alliance.

That's the explanation as I see it.

 

I don't see any problem with it. Why can't they be perceived as neutral ambassadors representing the interests of their clients? If the TF and IBC are neutral, then they would have representatives representing their interests on both sides: Republic and Separatist.

 

Yet we see the corporations pledge their exclusive loyalty to Dooku in AOTC. Then, in ROTS, they are hiding from the Republic because they are targets. That doesn't sound like neutral organizations to me.

The original AOTC script may have made them neutral, but in the actual movie they are not. The creators of the show shouldn't change the past on a whim just to suit their nees.

 

^I see the main leaders hiding, true, but not the entire TF or IBC.

 

Still, the situation is pretty convoluted.

 

It's a very unnecessarily complex turn of events, but I shall try and offer my take on events. Hope this helps!

What happened BEFORE: Nute Gunray launched a plot to mess with Naboo with the backing of Darth Sidious. It failed. Ten years later, he throws in his lot with the Separatists.

NEW information about what happened before: Nute Gunray was an extremist with great wealth and resources. That's what the TF says, anyway. It now leads them to the state of being, at worst, neutral, but still legally a business organisation.

What's happening now: TF, Banking Clan, and the like are conducting business with both sides and nobody seems able to stop them.

WHY this is so: Presently, all major galactic business entities are TECHNICALLY LEGAL. There's been so much corruption, so many senators and planets on their payroll, that if they were to STOP providing business and trade, it would be a devastating blow to several economies.
You just don't go say "C'mon, man, you can't deal with our enemies" to businessmen who actually CAN deal with your enemies. Not when they can reply "Oh yeah? Well, we're going to make you poor because we can!", or worse still, "Forget this, let's give your enemies ALL of our resources!"
Note: There have been various...debates...regarding how people COULD solve the problem, buuuuuut let's not get into those.

What's REALLY happening: Well, yeah, they're using 'neutrality' and 'legitimacy' to line their pockets. But a scene in Supply Lines also seems to make it clear that they're obviously under the thumb of the Separatists, or at least Count Dooku. Count Dooku wants to contact Lott Dod to interfere with the Ryloth relief effort. It's also probably more than a coincidence that the blockade of Pantora would have worked out so conveniently for the Separatists: Rescue the planet from starvation and poverty because of the 'legal' blockade, force them into your alliance.

Bottom line: They're pawns in Dooku's games, being used to check and trap entire systems as he sees fit. And they're doing it 'legally' because the Republic's laws and state of affairs are so corrupt that they can get away with it.

Addendum: Of course, I don't think every member of these organisations is a scheming, money grubbing snake serving Dooku. Sometimes they're just scheming, money grubbing snakes in general. In other words, genuine businessmen. The TF representative on Pantora's blockade seemed VERY reluctant to be involved in anything even remotely close to inciting galactic war, even if the blockade was legal.

 

^Good points, koonfan. I especially agree with your comments about greedy business-persons. It does not make sense that the TF, IBC, Techno-Union, and Commerce Guild would decide to do business only with Separatist worlds as that would greatly limit the amount of business they'd conduct. In the scene from AotC, Count Dooku says that 10,000 more systems will rally to their "cause". That "cause" should not be construed to be the same "cause" of the TF, IBC, Techno-Union, and Commerce Guild (whose main "cause" is business). One of the members of that meeting even says to Count Dooku that what Dooku is suggesting could be considered treason: betraying the Republic.

I think that the treaty Count Dooku is proposing to these leaders of business entities is simply a treaty to conduct business in manners favorable to the Separatist Alliance. It's not a treaty to join in war against the Republic and limit their dealings only to Separatist worlds. It's important to emphasize that the TF, IBC, Techno-Union, and Commerce Guild are not war entities, but business entities - even if business they conduct is in the manufacture of the elements of war.

 

koonfan, your explanation of neutrality does have merit. Many arms dealing companies build weapons for both "sides" around the globe. So playing both sides is not really unheard of.

It's just that in the show the TF and IBC seem to be opening working with the seppies and the senate doesn't sanction them or anything. Then you throw in the Kaminoan Halle Berritoni and it seems a little much.

 

It's definitely a state of affairs that most casual viewers won't be thinking about. This whole thing might never truly come to light.

My guess is that the Senate itself is too afraid to sanction the business organisations because they're too tied up in them. Harming them, or attempting to harm them, would affect the Republic itself.

By TPM, business and trade laws have been structured in such a way, it seems, that they can get away with murder legally. To legally go after these business entities, committees need to be set up to examine the problem, something which is not only time consuming, but potentially one-sided, seeing as they've probably bought a large number of votes.

Corrupt senators don't want to risk losing a source of credits. And confronting them for pursuing their legal 'business rights' might just convince them to pack up and do business with only the Separatists, a schism that would stretch the Republic thinner. Even whole worlds are at their mercy, depending on them for trade and business.

Though I do admit, it might be interesting to see various reprisals against them. Future episode scene?

 

Yes, if Kamino is not part of the Republic, then how does it get a Senator, Halle Burtoni, to represent it in the Republic? Did it become part of the Republic after AotC? It is provided representation because it's supplying the Republic with clone troops which are of vital interest to the Republic's future?

 

Yeah, once they came to light, Kamino's role in providing the Republic with its troops got them a seat in the Senate. Senator Burtoni, in her position, wants to leverage as many advantages for her homeworld as possible.

 

Although I like the Bonteri's homeworld (I think that's how you spell Bonteri) and why they seperated from the Republic, I always felt that the CIS should only consist of alien races, just so it can justify the Empire's viewpoint in the OT. It would be another reason why they are looked at in disdain. It's obvious now why droids are despised, but I think it needs to be explained more so in the coming seasons of the Clone Wars of how aliens are looked at in the past, present and future.

 

Kamino got a Senator after it delivered the clone army which saved the Galactic Republic's ass on Geonosis. This is mentioned in the episode 'Senate Murders' by Onaconda Farr. We still don't know if they are technically in the Repbulic - I could see the Kaminoans just getting a vote in the Senate without actually joining the Republic - but it seems likely.

Trade Federation, InterGalactic Banking Clan, and Commerce Guild seem to be technically neutral. The Corporate Alliance has representatives in the Confederate Parliament, so I'm pretty sure at least they are technically on the side of the Confederacy. In truth all the corporation heads are closely working with the Sith (i.e. Darth Tyranus). We don't know how much they know, but they know enough to be most eager to continue the war as this is a means to maximize their profits. In the end they seem to assume that the Sith would reward them by creating a Capitalist wonderland in the New Order after the war. This could mean that their duplicity is eventually revealed, and thus they may be forced to work only with the Confederacy. That would be the case if Palpatine would throw them out of the Senate and the Republic.

 

Cis lead by only "aliens" - aliens like Dooku?
Still i agree that specistic terror is needed to explain imperial views and stuff but EU knows human seppies as well and actually Bonteris reminded me of OT since OT is very humancentered so it was natural CIS wouldn't be humanfree either... still it's odd how all non-clone republic officers look to be humans as well- would be fun to see some Mon Calamari or Ishi Tib or Rodian with that uniform- it would be so ironic foreshadowing there is need for some idealistic spacenazi with specistic views... Tarkin anyone?

actually AOTC movie itself made them neutral mentioning separatists and trade fed. as different thing- interestingly in his message Obi-Wan says that only commerce guilds and corporate alliance support Dooku- even though with plural form "guilds" he probably meant that TF was included still TCW portrayed Nute Gunray, Poggle and Wat Tambor as war criminals already so there is no problem with the movies- TF may have been kicked out of the senate by Rots.... still this needs explaining more than just Lott Dod's neutrality crap- that would work even in-universe- there must be bribed senators supporting the TF more thant show have portrayed.....

 

Oh dear. Are you serious? Business doesn't get a free hand in raping and pillaging the Mid Rim and that makes the government the villain? Really? Almost every unscrupulous corporate thug in the Galaxy is part of the CIS. Grievous is part of the CIS and he gleefully commits the most heinous of war crimes. In fact, we never see a loyal member of the Senate accepting bribes. When they do, guess what? They end up in league with the Separatists. To wit: Lott Dod, Passel Argente, Shu, Mai, San Hill, Wat Tambor, Po Nudo, Onaconda Farr (before his retcon in this series), Tal Merrik, that nobleman guy from Senate Spy.

The closest we have in the Republic is that Kaminoan lady, who is, at worst, representing the interests of her constituency, which is, you know, her job. WHAT CORRUPTION!

 

I don't think we will see any raping in this series any time soon but if we will it's probably committed by those weequaypirates anyway- those destroyed Asajj Ventress' childhood for example as we learned from the newest episode

 

If you haven't noticed, she told the Quarren Senator in this very episode that clones are living, breathing people. Padme said pretty much what Shaak Ti said in "ARC Troopers", and she knows that they're pretty much being raised for slaughter. How many clones die and how many make it? The bill to produce more clones is a testament to how many they're losing. As Slick, the clone traitor in "The Hidden Enemy", which was arguably a better episode than "Pursuit of Peace", said, clones have no individuality, and people like Padme and Shaak Ti see that and that is why they don't want the war to continue. The Kaminoans, on the other hand, just feel that clones are like their iPods or something, things they make money off of. All of this "Padme is a stupid peacemongerer" is really getting on my nerves. Think of people who speak of bipartisanship in America today. Are they recipients of a larger audience than Glenn Beck or Rachel Maddow? No they are not.

 

Am I the only one disappointed by the fact that they are showing more and more of Palpatines plotting? Yes, we know that he will turn in to an evil empereror. But I still think they should keep it hidden in the show, or at least make it a bit more ambiguous.

They certainly managed that in the EU, which I think was quite nice.

 

I'm not disappointed. I'd like to see him discussing and plotting with Sly Moore and Mas Amedda. I want to see more about how he consolidates power. I imagine it would be rather difficult in such a enormous galaxy given so many centers of power.

 

I have to take issue with this notion too. I see the The Clone Wars as being very similar to the American Civil War. The main issue at hand is whether or not secession is permissible. The issue of secession is being driven by those who seek to profit by oppression. I'm obviously simplifying both but the point is I see remarkable similarities, and I don't think the Republic is more the villain than the CIS any more than I think the Civil War was a war of northern aggression, as some Southerners still choose to call it.