Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 314: Witches of the Mist Discussion Thread

In the course of a fight the power levels of the fighters can fluctuate (especially if they're Sith who rely on emotions, especially if it's a Sith apprentice relying on their emotions).

 

I have been thinking on Savage?s immense power despite a short amount of training and, well, I don?t think it to be that absurd. The dark side is the ?quick and easy? path. It rewards its followers immense power in short time. Think about Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, Darth Bane manages to become immensely powerful in a short amount of time. This happens to Exar Kun as well going from a prodigious Jedi to an incredibly powerful Sith Lord. Savage benefits from it just like these other dark siders.

Also Savage just wields raw power. He has no control or subtelty, all he uses is power. This is why he was so completley exhausted at the end, becuase he is just wasting all of his energy on these force attacks due too this total lack of control. From the small bits of training we see, it parallels Luke?s but at the same time is entirely different. Yoda and Luke focus on meditation and control. Dooku and Savage just seem to jump straight toward combat. And when it comes to it, if Savage can lift the blocks (which he can and does) then he should be able to easily knock back a couple of droids.

I'd assume he was just incredibly surprised.

 

I like that post. ^ Of course, I'm biased towards explanations that make things make sense.

 

Heh, well, either Obi-Wan is going to kill him twice, or Anakin is going to kill him twice (he kills him as Darth Vader)

I think I'll be heartbroken if Ahsoka is the one who does the deed though. Savage I wouldn't be too thrilled about either. I swear, though, Maul has nine lives. Assuming he comes back now, he also comes back to fight Vader, and his brain or something is killed by Luke. He'll probably show up in FOTJ as an uber badass toe nail.

Different topic, I'm surprised so many people want Ventress to die in TCW, especially considering how many complaints I see about disregarding canon. I do think Ventress needs closure, but I'd rather it come after her end in the comics. Actually, I think it would be appropriate for Vader to kill her.

 

If TCW actually pulled a joke like that, I might have to forgive the show for bringing Maul back!

...okay, that is OFFICIALLY the best joke about Maul's many resurrections. EVER!

 

Agreed! It literally made me laugh out loud, and that's no mean feat!

 

Haha same here Gry.

 

Yeah, very nice Maul jokes.

Random speculation on Dooku's vidjagame lightning...He certainly seems more forceful than Palpatine ever did (though Palpatine seemed to put more UMPH into it in Revenge of the Sith), but I actually have a theory on it.

Sure, Dooku is powerful, well trained, and his lightning still hurts like kark...but he has some disadvantages over Palpatine.
I think he's actually older than Palpatine (or at least has not mastered some Sith alchemy stimulant yet ). His reserves of the Force, while impressive, are more susceptible to strain.

He's still the apprentice. He's well versed in lightning, but he hasn't reached Palpatine's levels. Rather than just small bursts bringing untold levels of pain and agony, it's more comparable to a traditional electrical attack. A very devastating, unblockable electrical attack, but there you go.

Following up on these two, I think that Dooku used lightning as often as he did for two reasons:
Firstly, his lightning's not as strong, therefore, he at least thinks he might need to do it more often.
Secondly, it doesn't come as naturally to him as it does with Palpatine. So rather than a few sustained or concentrated jolts, at present he has to let it flow out like a faucet.

What, might I ask, does this add? Not much, really. I just started thinking 'well, he's emoting well, but if I didn't know better I'd say he was straining'.

 

Exceptional, truly exceptional; that episode made the previous two seem so much better. I literally don?t have anything to critique... it was cool to see the last stand of King Katuunko, exceptional lightsaber duels, the unbridled power of Savage and the astonishingly epic music (anyone notice at one point it seemed to slightly echo ?Battle of the Heroes??). Regarding the revelation about Maul; it seems to answer the question as to why Savage is force-sensitive... he believes all of his ?kin? were killed, leading me to believe that his ?kin? is inherently force-sensitive and are perhaps all related. It is going to be awesome to see Savage?s destiny unfold and see him and Maul unleash their power against the galaxy... depending on how ?alive? Maul is.

 

I'm REALLY intrigued as to how in Hoth you arrived at that conclusion. The difference between Darth Maul's on-screen death and Darth Vader getting dismembered is the difference between night and day.

 

You cut off the quote so it makes a little less sense. Darth Vader gets all his limbs cut off, burned to a crisp, and survives. Ventress falls down a cliff and survives. Darth Maul loses his legs and pelvis, falls down a cliff, but CANNOT POSSIBLY have survived? That doesn't seem logically consistent.

 

So, by my count, Dooku hit Savage with force lightning 11 times in this episode.
He hit Ventress with it twice.

So Dooku used force lightning 13 times in this one episode. That has to be a record

 

This isn't a matter of context. What we see on screen:

Darth Maul gets cut in half. He tumbles backwards in two pieces down a chasm. The end.

Darth Vader loses his legs from the knees down, one arm, and gets set on fire before being rescued by the Emperor. His life is spared by way of mechanical reconstruction on Coruscant.

Whatever you're referencing about Ventress I am neither interested in or aware of so it's irrelevant to the point being made. There's a reason I clipped it from the quote. I just don't see how someone can equate Maul's onscreen death to Vader's onscreen injuries in terms of survivability.

 

Well, Dooku calls her his most skilled apprentice or whatever. But the character of Ventress is something I find very interesting, and it's why I found the Nightsisters episode the most interesting. Does she self-sabotage? Does she snatch defeat from the jaws of victory? Does she truly want to be a Sith?

Instead of discussing these interesting topics, let's bring back Darth Maul!!11!1111

 

Couldn't agree more! First episode was by far the most interesting of the arc.




As for the following questions:

HOW DID MAUL SURVIVE?

and

HOW COME SAVAGE TURNED ON VENTRESS JUST LIKE THAT?












[image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/JoZ/monkeylizardp.jpg]

 

It may be irrelevant to you but it is central to the point I'm making.

Ventress dies at the end of the first volume of the original Clone Wars cartoons from between the release of Episodes II and III. She falls down a cliff, but we don't actually see her die. Just like we see Darth Maul fall down a cliff, but we don't actually see him die. Both characters fall down a cliff and are presumed dead, yet reappear in this show (we're assuming with Maul). Seems relevant to me.

If you buy that Ventress survives a fall and that Vader survives all his limbs being cut off, it's logically inconsistent to consider it impossible for Darth Maul to have survived a fall and the loss of his legs and pelvis. That's the argument I'm making, you can cut out half of that argument and try to point out its faults, but you won't be arguing against the point I'm making.

Anakin's midichlorian count versus Ventress'?

 

Because Ventress wasn't chopped in half, and the cliff wasn't a melting pit, as the TPM script calls it.

Now, yes, Vader was also maimed and burned, but he was given immediate- and ONSCREEN- medical attention. Maul just fell down a hole into molten... whatever.

Also, being cut in half and falling in a molten pit is more severe an injury than losing all your limbs and being set on fire in any case.

There's no logical inconsistency because these are three totally different cases. You might have a case to argue with Vader... had they not shown us his rescue and reconstruction onscreen.

EDIT: Besides, even if you WERE to argue that Maul survived it, he'd be more like Vader or Grievous rather than the instantly-recognizeable face in Mother Talzin's crystal ball. There's no way he'd look the same he did in TPM because he was cut in half and fell into a pit of molten metal or plasma or whatever it is they had in that reactor on Theed.

 

So you're saying it's possible as long as we actually see it, impossible if we don't? It doesn't matter what's at the bottom of the pit if you never see the character actually hit the bottom.

You don't see him fall into molten metal or plasma or anything else. You see the beginning of his fall, presume he dies as the scene is clearly meant to give the audience that impression, but you don't see him land. Ventress survives her fall totally unscathed. You also see the beginning of her fall but not her landing, and in that case as well it seems clear the audience is led to believe she is dead. If it can happen with one character, there must be a reason as to why it'd be impossible for it to happen to another.

 

Not to mention Anakin is Anakin, stronger in the Force than any Jedi ever.

Maul isn't on his level.

 

You don't need to be a Force-user at all to survive those types of injuries, moreso in Maul's case than Anakin's. Ever read "Johnny Got His Gun?"

 

The presence of anything to prevent him from hitting the bottom is in itself a massive retcon.

What I'm saying is, the reason we have no problem believing Anakin/Vader survived his injuries is that they showed us he did.

Whereas they showed us Maul being chopped in half, gasping in surprise, then falling down a looooooong way to go swimming in two separate halves in whatever molten substance lies at the bottom of that pit. And that's the last they show of him.

Cliff deaths are rarely reliable... unless the character in question is chopped in half and there's something molten they're going to land in. I mean, what more do you want? On-screen disintegration?

 

I'm making a very simple argument, so forgive me for repeating myself. We never see Darth Maul hit the bottom, we are only meant to assume he does. Just like Ventress. I'm not denying that the audience is meant to assume these characters are dead in these scenes, that much is clear. But going strictly off of what we see on the screen, Darth Maul is no more definitely dead than Ventress.

 

You seem to be arguing that Maul's survival is possible. Well, in the Star Wars universe, anything is possible, regardless of how ridiculous it is. Any arguments you can make for Maul being alive can be made for any character that has ever died in SW history.

I'm simply stating that Maul being alive, regardless of how, is stupid. The guy was cut in half and fell a great distance, he's dead.

 

NIAWYC

Personally, that was the first time I'd ever sat down to watch an episode of TCW all the way through (and the only the second or third time I'd seen even part of the show). It interested me enough to keep watching, and is definitely the best of these past three. Like you, I am intrigued with Ventress as a character, and would like to see the show return to some of these issues.

Eh, I'm disinclined to think so. I would tend to think baseline differences mattered more when they had less training, not more. Even if we were to accept that explanation, it's non-sensical that she would fight worse than AOTC-era Anakin, but simultaneously was a match for post-AOTC Anakin. You'd have to postulate that either she, Anakin, or both, have actually gotten worse over time instead of better.

 

Review of the latest ep over at Den of Geek:

http://www.denofgeek.com/television/742050/star_wars_the_clone_wars_season_3_episode_14_review_witches_of_the_mist.html