Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 314: Witches of the Mist Discussion Thread

Yup.

Like I said already -- GL being able to actually and honestly think bringing back Maul was conceivable is HogWASH I tell ya! Hog Wash!

Especially when Filoni even pointed it out.

Talk about not standing up to your boss?

How about someone -- anyone -- in all of Skywalker Ranch [incidentally - I believe the same thing happens at Spielberg Ranch] just putting their foot down?

Honestly - do you think you could really be fired for stating the obvious fact that you refuse to submit to a Whimsical boss who breaks the very same continuity that has kept you in business for 30 something years?

Um, lawsuit?

Da##it -- It shoulda been stopped in the writer pow wow -- and laughed about later.

"Remember when George said... I know. right? hahahahaha! let's go grab a beer"

Jeez - bring back Durge! lol

 

I mean, seriously -- GL HAD to know why he was having Maul cut in half and dropped down a shaft.

He HAD to know his intent was that Maul was done-zo once and for all!

Can anyone honestly say [including George] - that he had anything else in mind????

I mean wow -- he found a way to stick Jar Jar in every PT -- and yet he didn't have the foresight to realize Maul was worth keeping around for one more film?

 

It's fine if you believe that to be an invalid comparison, but if you don't tell me why you think that how am I supposed to respond? The whole reason I wrote that post was to ask exactly that: what is the reason it's an invalid comparison? If you're answer is that one happens in a movie and one happens in a cartoon you've really lost me.

We see Qui-Gon die, and we see him on his death bed at his funeral. We see neither of those things with Maul. True, if one wanted to get really absurd they could argue Qui-Gon faked all those things, the point is his death is confirmed by those things, Darth Maul's death is never confirmed.

Are you knowledgeable enough about Zabrak anatomy to make such an assertion, or are you just assuming they're the same as humans? I've seen enough science-fiction to know that non-human humanoids rarely have the same internal arrangement, if you will, as humans.

Okay, now it just seems like your taking gratuitous jabs at me and my position rather than discussing the issue, which I really do not appreciate, especially since you're supposed to be a moderator here... I realize my name isn't in the post but just look at the context. I'm trying to show that I respect you and your position despite our strong disagreement, and I would appreciate the same in return.

I agree, that would not have just been a nice but a more original touch. It'd be awesome if he could block lightsaber strikes due to the axe's magicks and keep that for his main weapon rather than the double-bladed lightsaber, that

 

I really don't understand how you saw a jab at you in that post of mine. It was absolutely not my intention. I was just pointing out how ridiculous it would be if we started to consider being cut in half as a non-lethal thing. You and I have very different opinions in this particular subject, and we've been going back and forth with this discussion for a while now, but none of us has made it personal, which is why it's been a good, healthy discussion. I don't agree with you, but I certainly respect you. I just injected a little bit more humour in that latest post, but that was entirely directed at the argument, not at you.


Tarkus, I think you might have exceeded the number of quotes within one post supported by the system. That was one epice quote-a-post!

 

So you acknowledge that his death scene in Ep. I doesn't logically exclude his possible survival and you admit that it's especially plausible due to the nature of the science-fiction genre, and yet your position is truly that extreme. I find that puzzling. It's hard for me to understand how one's attachment to a character's death could be so much greater than one's attachment to that character, particularly the most-complained-about-not-beeing-seen-enough character of probably all the Star Wars films. I'd be sad if this happened and hope you'll reconsider.

Thank you for clearing that up, but I hope you'll note I've never said anything negative or derogatory about the position I was arguing against, I just asked questions to further the discussion. So I don't really appreciate having to read over and over and over again that my position is hilariously absurd.

 

I must have missed it, but it doesn't matter.

Savage is a Darth Maul clone, end of story. Any attempts by the writers to disguise him as something else is transparent, it is obvious to any Star Wars fan what he is.

If they didn't want him to be another Maul, then why did they give him Maul's trademarks?

Zabrak? Check

Tattoos? Check

Double bladed lightsaber? Check

They had a chance to separate him from Maul with the Nightsisters weapon, but they went right back to the Maul trademarks.

Maul is one of the few Zabrak dark siders, he's by far the most recognizable for his tattoos (this was before the One Sith), and he's still one of the few to use the double bladed lightsaber. It is a very difficult weapon to learn, that is why it is so rare. To give it to Savage is just an attempt to copy Maul's popularity, it doesn't make sense for Savage to be able to wield it without extensive training.

If Savage had just thing in common with Maul, being Zabrak, it would be different. Going with the double bladed lightsaber just threw any attempt at individuality out the window.

 

My attachment is not to that character's death or the character in particular. My attachment is to the integrity of the Star Wars property. I love this universe, but every time Lucas decides to go with the cheapest storytelling devices, pandering to the audience, it chips away at the integrity of the franchise. Every time he includes Greedo in a story where he doesn't belong, creates a clone of Darth Maul just to have another go at the character or negates miles of beloved EU material just 'cause, I feel Star Wars becomes a little bit poorer for it. It might be the case that if he starts bringing back to life characters whose death was a definite and pivotal fact, it just might make the series so fickle as to be inconsequential and devoid of further storytelling merit, in which case I would have no interest in following the further CW adventures, and much less moderating a forum dedicated to it.

Bear in mind that this is hypothetical. As I said in my first review of this episode, I'm reserving judgement on this Maul thing for when it actually comes into play. So far I'm sure it's not the case that he simply survived that incident somehow, as it was just a frozen face in a glass ball.

But the thing is, I DO find your position absurd. What can I say? That's my opinion. I respect your opinion, but I still find it absurd, and if I extend it a little further, hilarity ensues.

Ok, try this, please tell me which character I'm talking about here:

He's this zabrak warrior, with some cool tribal black tatoos all over his body, yellow eyes and some fearsome horns on the top of his head. He's a very powerful fighter who comes from this village of zabraks on Dathomir! He's the brother of this other zabrak, Feral, who has yellow and black skin. He became the apprentice of this powerful Sith Lord and learned the ways of the Dark Side from him, as well as how to fight with this wicked double-bladed red lightsaber against the Jedi!

Not so easy, is it? I know that Savage has aspects to his story that make him different from Maul, but it really shouldn't be possible to write this whole paragraph above and you still be unable to tell which one I'm talking about.

 

I got this great idea for a new character. He's a Duros. Bounty Hunter. Big cowboy hat, long leather coat. Wields double blasters and has jet boosters on his boots. He's not the same as Cad Bane though! He comes from the same planet, but he has a purple skin, and he became a bounty hunter out of revenge for the murdering of his whole family. He fights differently as well, he shoots his blasters at exactly the same time, instead of one by one.

???

Never respond? As far as I know, I've responded to all your posts that were addressed to me. I've been going through the last couple of pages, but I honestly can't seem to find the analysis you're talking about. For what it's worth, these are some recent things I said to other people on this same topic of Opress:

We can argue all the way to Mexico if it was possible for Maul to survive, but my main issue with bringing back Maul from the dead (or the creation of Opress, for that matter) is that it's just a cheap sell-out to cater to the fanboys.

You can argue that Opress is different, but the fact of the matter is that they weren't setting out to do anything really different to begin with.

On the creation of Opress, Lucas said to Filoni something along the lines of:

'How about bringing Darth Maul back? People liked him...'

 

Darth_Tarkus seems to be arguing things nobody is denying.

Is it possible for Maul to be alive?

Yes, it's the Star Wars universe, anything is possible. What we're saying is that Maul being alive, regardless of how, is stupid.


Are Maul and Savage 100% identical?

Nobody has said they are. But their similarities are so striking the connection is obvious, immediate, and basically impossible to let go.

Savage may have more character development, but I would hope so. It would be even more ridiculous for the writers to copy Maul's character down to the last letter when "creating" Savage. They had to do something different, didn't they? They may have made a few changes, but I see right through them. It is very obvious they started with Maul as their prototype and then made a few changes to pass him off as original.

 

Totally have to agree here. Bringing Maul back is like bringing the Emperor back in the EU. It cheapens their deaths in the movies and makes Obi Wan's victory and Darth Vader's sacrifice (respectively) seem trivial and much less meaningful.

I just watched the commentary for "Monster" and in it Filoni says that GL wanted to bring Maul back and that Filoni compromised by bringing the Zabrak and Maul's kin into the story. Well, Filoni may not have been telling the whole truth in that commentary it would seem! The fact that GL wants Darth Maul back in the story makes me more fearful than ever that somehow Darth Maul is still alive. If so that's even worse than Padme dying immediately after giving birth in ROTS while in ROTJ Leia "has" memories of her real mother while Luke doesn't.

Don't get me wrong, GL is great, but maybe someone should go get him working on Indy 5 so he can stay away from TCW to avoid any more of these continuity issues...

 

^ This is the only example I could find, the other time(s) I've mentioned it must not have been in this thread.

I already agreed on the lightsaber thing, a different weapon would've been more original and cooler especially since they already set it up beautifully only to abandon it as Gry pointed out, other than that you're just describing the physical appearance. Two characters looking alike doesn't make their backgrounds the same. We don't see Darth Maul's background and are just meant to assume he's an evil guy. Opress is a noble individual willing to sacrifice himself to save a brother who is transformed - both mentally and physically - by a Force witch ritual into a "Monster." If all you have is to cast dispersions on the writers' motives for creating that backstory that's not a very potent complaint. The difference in their backgrounds, and therefore their characters, is factual. If you want to dispute that I need facts about what we see in the story, not speculation on the writers' motives. Your continued assertions that "everybody knows (insert one of your opinions)" is also ineffective for the same reasons, not to mention disproven by the wide spectrum of opinion displayed in this thread.

 

The reason I didn't reply to that must have been that I felt we argued these arguments a few times over. It seems like we are only repeating our own arguments all the time.

If you see him as a different character, I'm happy for you, honestly.

I see a clone, and I'm not happy with it.

Same species
Same sex
Same sort of tattoos
Same planet of origin
Also a Force user
Same sort of weapon, same blade colour

The fighting style, his skin colour and longer horns are the only minor details in which they differ. In terms of backstory, we have little to compare. But their appearance and purpose are virtually identical.

Show Opress footage to anyone who doesn't know about the character and they'll say it's Maul, only yellow.

I think at this point we can only agree to disagree...

And I stand by my point that they purposely made him with the intent of re-creating Maul.

 

Yes, the character is Darth Maul's brother. That takes care of half your list. That doesn't count as a similarity in character unless you're speaking of demographics. The Nightsisters don't oppress females so I don't think you have too a great a point with that one but I grant you that I hadn't thought of that. What we have left is that he's a Force user with the same weapon. I already agreed that the weapon thing was a bad choice, but the fact that he's a Force user counts as a character similarity? Care to tell me what the one underlying trait of all Force users in the Star Wars films is, other than that they use the Force? Again, that's only a similarity in character in a demographic sense. I'm always fine with agreeing to disagree.

 

Add in IGN's as well... same reactions as in here at LACWAC

 

Okay, if we're going to abandon any semblance of a discussion based on what we can determine empirically and go completely subjective, here's how I feel: I absolutely loved the background story of Savage Opress as shown in "Monster." He's a unique character with a history unlike any other I'm aware of in the Star Wars universe. And I've read my share of EU. If he doesn't count as unique because of his species and lightsaber, most of the main characters in the films are not unique because they're mostly human, and most Force-users have lightsabers that are one of three colors with similar hilts. Okay, I stuck a little empiricism in there, so sue me.

We're given a comparatively lengthy and unique background for the character. To automatically disregard all of that not based on its own merits but because of your own preconceived prejudice against having the brother of Darth Maul as a character on the show at all is not an opinion that I have any respect for. It seems rooted in stubbornness, as if you wouldn't have allowed yourself to enjoy the character no matter how it was done.

 

Right. And we think having Maul 2.0 on the show is a bad idea and bringing back Maul 1.0 just adds more hilarity to the universe.

Are you going to stop before you get yourself in trouble?

The discussion has been pretty decent and I'm honestly shocked that you are apparently getting frustrated because no one is agreeing with you?

Welcome to the internet!

 

That doesn't change a bit about the fact that it was a design choice to make him Maul's brother, and as such, similar in appearance.

When I'm talking about a character I'm talking about everything that defines him, including his physical appearance. Not just his personality. (Besides, especially in Star Wars, visual appearances are important. Star Wars is mostly a visual story. Any expert in cinematography will confirm that.)

Okay, so because the Nightsisters don't oppress females he couldn't have been a woman? Is that what you're saying? Of course he could have been a woman, only he would have needed a different background story. Not to mention the fact that if they'd chosen a different species, they'd have avoided that issue altogether. But they didn't want to.

And so far he's still ticking all the boxes. The fact that you think I should disregard the first few features only because he's his brother doesn't change the fact that Maul being his brother is still a design choice. As such, the identical physical traits shouldn't be disregarded whatsoever.

Of course. Especially because if you add all these traits together you will find that Maul has exactly the same ones. If it were the only trait they shared, I would agree with you.

It's about the total package.

Why aren't Dooku and Maul considered similar characters, even though both served Palpatine as an apprentice, and both use the Force? Not only because they have different personalities (as far as we know anything at all about Maul's), but mainly because of the many differences in their physical appearances.

And as I've said earlier:

Their appearance and purpose are virtually identical. Show Opress footage from 'Witches of the Mist' to anyone who doesn't know about the character and they'll say it's Maul, only yellow.

 

I'm not frustrated that people disagree with me, I fully expect that. I do come from political forums and before that heavy metal forums, both of which have WAY more demagoguing even than what I've seen here. It is frustrating that no one can give me a good reason why the character is so awful other than that they were against the entire idea from the start before even seeing the episode. The disdain for the character seems to have nothing to do with the character or his story based on its own merits and everything to do with people's preconceived notions about the choice to make the character Darth Maul's brother, which I think is unfortunate because it's holding people back from enjoying the truly unique aspects of the character.

@Humble_Jedi

If your entire opinion of the character is based on a "design choice" you disagreed with, see the last post I addressed to CT.

 

It's based on the vast majority of design choices for the character, yes.

We're discussing the character design, right?

Look, I went to lengths and depths to explain to you in detail my opinions and arguments on the matter. I've reacted in detail to virtually every single argument you've made. If your conclusion now, is that I'm simply being prejudiced, then you are either disregarding my arguments entirely or you seem to be ironically -shall I say 'prejudiced'?- about my motivations.

 

It's not that, it's partially that I already over-loaded the quote capacity once and probably would've done so again if I went point by point, but mostly that it seems all the points you bring up go back to the central idea of a character being Darth Maul's brother. And that's what my post was about. Everything you said seemed like commentary on the decision to make the character Maul's brother, none of it actually addresses Opress' story. I'm not trying to dismiss you out of hand, I just would have been repeating myself a lot.

Okay here I go.

(1) the complaint is that the character is Darth Maul's brother, nothing to do with Opress' story

(2) visual appearances are important in Star Wars, but whether or not a character's story has any worth or originality is not determined by that character's appearance

(3) the character's story is not made good or bad by the gender of the character - this is another complaint that has to do with demographics you were aware of before you saw the episode and absolutely nothing to do with the character's story (also, we don't see any female Zabrak on Dathomir, but again the choice of gender doesn't make a bad story good or vice versa)

(4) if the total package of a male Zabrak Sith is inherently a problem than you must admit your distaste for the character has little or nothing to do with the actual "meat" of that character's story (see (2))

(5) again, this a complaint about Opress' appearance/species/gender, things you were already aware of before you knew his story, this is totally unrelated to the nuanced (and not just by Star Wars standards) and tragic aspects of his sto

 

Even your empiricism is faulty because you just don't seem to recognize how rare Zabrak dark siders and double bladed lightsabers are.

Human Jedi with blue lightsabers are the most common, Zabrak dark siders with double bladed lightsabers numbered only one before Savage.

When someone creates a human Jedi with a blue lightsaber, they are following a well established mold. When someone creates a Zabrak dark sider with a double bladed lightsaber they are copying a completely unique character. There is no comparison. You're comparing apples with dragon fruit.

As for anything unique about Savage, I don't care about his backstory. It isn't interesting enough to offset his contrived image.

I don't see protecting your brother as especially noble, I see it as normal. Who wouldn't protect their brother?



Q: He's a Zabrak, so what?

A: There's been only one major Zabrak dark sider.

Q: He uses a double bladed lightsaber, so what?

A: Very few use a double bladed lightsaber, and Maul is by far the most associated with that weapon.

 

Just because something is rare doesn't mean it never occurs. Which, coincidentally, is directly linked with empiricism.

I've repeated countless times that I agree about the lightsaber. Is it hopeless? Of course, it's not ludicrous to think that Tyranus would give his new Zabrak apprentice the same weapon he knew Sidious gave his old Zabrak apprentice. If you think about it. I still think they could've made a better and more original decision, but it's not like it's crazy in-universe, which is where I try to put myself when I watch The Clone Wars.

Regardless, if the fact that he has a double-bladed lightsaber means you won't allow yourself to enjoy the unique aspects of his story (a decision that has nothing to do with the story), I don't envy you.

The typical Sith Lord in Star Wars, who is a character of pure evil and opportunistic selfishness. Which makes Opress atypical for a Sith. I like atypical stories/characters. Much more than I dislike choices of weaponry that I disagree with. (Seriously.)

 

Some one forgot about Sirak...

 

Dooku wanted Maul number two- so he tried to make him one - makes sense to me

WOW Luke is clone of his father they even have same hairstyle and same skincolor both are good pilots and technicians and they have same droids even R2 and 3po and and exactly same weapon

So what's the prob- Maul cannot have relatives or what... is he conjured from thin air then ....

Same species
Same sex
No tattoos
Same skincolor
Also a Force user
Same sort of weapon, same blade colour

WOW Obi-Wan and Anakin are clones too

 

The original Clone Wars television series was set in a hyper reality version of Star Wars. Where the force users abilities turned them into Superman.

You right, I am sure all his organs are in his left butt cheek.

This reminds me of when people tried to deny that Eragon was a blatant, and terrible retelling of Star Wars. Or that Jango's existence wasn't tied directly to the popularity of Boba Fett.

There isn't anything unique about Savage. That they decided to try and work some tragedy into his character, doesn't change that. They make it pretty obvious that Maul pretty much lived the same life as Savage until being taken by Sidious.

He is Maul's stand-in, because logically Maul can't be there. It would be like if they actually made an Episode VII and there was character named Darth Vicious who is a fallen Jedi turned Sith, who wears black armor that also serves as life support, carries around a red lightsaber, and had this knack for loud breathing. But of course he would be nothing like Darth Vader, because it was his daddy's penchant for drinking and beating his mother that turned him to the darkside, not his own selfish desires.