Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 315: Overlords Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Barriss_Coffee, Jan 22, 2011.

  1. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    I think it is more that the Sith are the embodiment of evil. Evil is what makes the force ?out of Balance? and unnatural. By destroying the Sith he eliminates ?evil in the universe? thus bringing things back to their natural state.

    [image=http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/Commander_Gray/final.gif]
  2. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Wow, an animated gif! I think NOW we've covered everything. Nice initiative.

    Reposting so it can be visualized correctly:

    <img src="http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/Commander_Gray/final.gif">
  3. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Thanks man. I got tired of having to write paragraphs after paragraphs explaining the concept... so now if it arises in conversation we can just take out the GIF...

    :-B
  4. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    And now how does EU and return of the sith goes with all of this[face_whistling]

    It doesn't......


    but if you want you can try to explain it as well:p
  5. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    I was actually thinking about that the other day... and unfortunately it doesn?t integrate in any way. It?s actually fairly impossible to retcon. Our initial interpretations were that the SITH needed to be destroyed and that the others (like the ONE SITH) were not necessarily ?true Sith?... However that is not the case; the Prophecy involves the destruction of the unnatural human state of EVIL, and it is impossible to say the Post-Endor Sith were not evil.

    The fact of the matter is that Anakin is the CHOSEN ONE and that he brings balance to the Force by destroying evil in the universe. That is an irrefutable G-Canon fact.

    I essentially have my own canon about the post-ROTJ era (including the Vong War and a few other events/characters however) so it doesn?t really bother me. I do however like the Legacy comics and this seems to eliminate all of that from possibility.

    There has got to be a way to retcon it... or at least I am sure someone will be able to. [face_thinking]
  6. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    I think it's very incovenient how Lucas-canon conflicts with EU-canon this much and still both are official- but i lose nothing since i always hated all sith returning after Rotj- comics- well written or not it's just despicable idea and weakens the movies a lot- i prefer Old Republic era if sith vs. jedi stories are needed but lack of imagination in design is still pretty disappointing especially in TOR... but also in KOTOR and stuff... there is too much saga rip-offs

    Era from TPM to ROTJ has it all.... actually thousand years before and after saga looks similar to me and there is no magic of Sw that would capture my imagination like Lucas' continuity does.....
  7. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    He destroys the Sith, not evil.

    In simplistic terms another Sith could emerge simply by studying the teachings(via holocron) of any other Sith. Even a Sith apprentice like Ventress or Lumiya could help carry on the tradition.

    Evil can't be destroyed, some people are still going to steal and murder and rape, its impossible to escape from.

    Or do you feel the Hutt's suddenly freed all there slaves when Anakin killed Palpatine?
  8. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Well I think Lucas? intent was that if either the Jedi or Sith were to go extinct they wouldn?t return. While it is theoretically possible for them to return I would imagine it isn?t the intent. If it were the case they could ?just return? I don?t think Yoda would be as definitive with the Skywalker children are the last hope... It is probable that during the eventual Siege of Coruscant by the Second Republic that they ?burn/destroy? all Sith Holocrons.

    Lucas has always said that in destroying the Sith Anakin also destroys ?evil in the Universe?... I know that it wouldn?t destroy general evil, however it would likely destroy the ?High Evil? (the Sith) if that makes sense.
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    This is turning into a music video. You kids and your MTV! :p
  10. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I always took Yoda to mean that the children were the last hope for the Jedi, not for the galaxy itself - though I can see how it would be viewed hand in hand even if I don't view it that way.

    That said this discussion will lead us nowhere because I refuse to to ignore the rest of the EU as a whole which is what your take requires. To me Star Wars didn't end with ROTJ, it just barely got started.
  11. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Yeah that is what I am saying... that once a certain order is completely destroyed (Jedi/Sith) they can?t return (from the point of view of Lucas). Otherwise Yoda wouldn?t say that the children are their last hope. I am suggesting although theoretically the Sith could return, from Lucas?s point of view, once the Order is completely destroyed (either all Sith or all Jedi) they won?t return... this is implied by Yoda?s line (last hope for the Jedi)...

    I?m not sure I?m making sense... tell me if I?m not...

    I enjoy the EU also. However it seems this isn?t just ?my theory? but rather it is ?Lucas?s theory?... he implies that there is no story after ROTJ and that ?evil is destroyed?...

    I?m hoping there is a feasible retcon however...
  12. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    And I say.......wait for it....So what if it is Lucas's theory? Does Lucasbooks then cease to exist if he doesn't consider them a part of his story? They absolutly do not.

    They are a real tangible, that exists in the real world, that carries on the story of Star Wars with Lucas's blessing, even if its not his take on events. They might not be his canon but he can't control how I feel about the situation.

    Let me ask you this though, since this may be "Lucas's Theory", how did George Lucas then plan to do a Sequel Trilogy to the OT in the early 80's if all evil had been destroyed? Some of the earliest quotes from Lucas talk about how the OT was he middle of a 9 movie epic.

    Best I can give you is that it may be a revisionist George Lucas Theory, kinda like Greedo shooting first, George is all about that kinda stuff.
  13. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    All I am saying is that it is the intent of the Prophacy... the Prophacy as it is intended in the films and series ends the story at ROTJ. You must twist or retcon the Prophecy in order for the post-ROTJ EU to exist... I am personally looking for a way to retcon it.

    However just because the post-EU exists doesn?t mean that the scale theory I have established isn?t the true one. It isn?t the one for the EU (and that?s fine), however I believe it is the one for the G-Canon Universe...

    I can only assume that the 9 (actually originally 12) film Saga was developed and conceptualized before the whole ?Balance? thing was established... thus evil was not necessarily destroyed in some prophecy involving Anakin Skywalker... That is the reason why he decided to not make the Sequels; because his other films wouldn?t make any sense...

    In my opinion however much of the post-ROTJ EU can still exist... just not the ones about the reborn Sith... it would simply be about waring states (like the Yuuzhan Vong) and not about ?ultimate Evil?...




    Anyway here are some fixed scales:

    [image=http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/Commander_Gray/finalfinished.gif]
  14. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Again it does exist if George likes it or not. He authorized licencing of his work that has existed in print for over three decades. It's not going anywhere.

    I can still read Heir to the Empire and adopt Zahn's version of The Clone Wars if I wish. Its that exact sujectivity that he can't erase even if he wants to.
  15. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    I?m not denying that. However the Chosen One prophecy (as established by George Lucas) does not fit in with the post-ROTJ EU. It is clear that the Prophecy means the destruction of EVIL...

    Its a continuity error. As such, even though it doesn?t fit with the post-ROTJ EU, I believe my illustration is completely accurate according to G-Canon. The EU doesn?t make it incorrect it merely makes a continuity error. That?s all I?m saying...
  16. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    But in coming up with your definition your speculating about Lucas's original intent with the OT Sequel.

    You may believe in your theory but I'm not seeing anything that represents proven fact in what your presenting.

    If there is still a dark side of th Force then there will still be those with the ability to manipulate it. But if your saying the dark side of the Force was destroyed then the concept of your entire chart is destroyed as the dark side would be gone and finished - not still contributing to the balance.

  17. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    The Father clearly says that BALANCE is the literal natural balance between LIGHT and DARK as represented by the Yin-Yang symbol. If Anakin is to restore this Balance he can not destroy the Dark Side as it would destroy nature as we know it. That is a fact established in these episodes... as such the Dark Side can?t be destroyed as you suggest... only the unnatural evil...
  18. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    The Father never mentions a Ying & Yang symbol, even if I were to accept his words as the universal truth - which I don't.
  19. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    The Yin-Yang symbol is seen on the area and at the end of my diagram... it is what they intended to literally demonstrate natural balance... would they include the Yin-Yang symbol if it did not have any meaning for the Force?

    Well then we have hit a wall. In my opinion they established this arc to demonstrate what ?balance? means. I don?t think they would have convoluted the Saga with unnecessary lies... as such I think what the Father says of Balance is meant to be truth...
  20. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Your claims that the father directly speaks about the Ying & Yang symbol are innacurate. Its that simple. What Lucas intends for us to take from this is subjective at best and how the Father decorates his platforms are not my concern.

    Is R2-D2 and C-3PO appearing in hyrogliphics in the Indiana Jones films proof that those films take place in the same universe as Star Wars. I don't think so.


    Meh, your welcome to feel that way. Now that I've seen the whole arc I'm not getting that same vibe. I think he's offering a possible version of what the prophesy may mean, certainly his version of what the prophesy means, not the definitve truth.
  21. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    The Father says ?to much light or dark would be the undoing of life as we know it?. What would you say he is trying to say here? Is he lying?

    Seems like a mighty waste of time to spend three episodes listening to one old blokes view of balance.

    That?s like the crew saying, ?Here, we are going to tell you about the nature of the Force and the Prophecy. This is Barry and he is going to tell you what he thinks. We couldn?t be bothered just telling you so we thought we would confuse the hell out of everyone and let this bloke convolute the Saga?

    :p
  22. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Like they spent three films explaining it through the mouths of the Jedi Order and the Sith in a different context. No, they would never do that *cough*.
  23. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Actually they didn?t explain it in a different context. The Jedi have the same view as the Father. They constantly accept the existence of the Dark Side however they say the Sith must be destroyed. Essentially they are saying ?we have to kill those evil guys who imbalance the Force?... it?s the same view as the Father... after ROTJ you can bet that the Dark Side still exists and the Jedi know this... otherwise they would be saying 'we have to destroy the Dark Side of the Force'...

    So you are suggesting they spent a trilogy of episodes intended to explain the Prophecy and the Force and filled it full of inaccurate lies...?
  24. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Yes, because bringing the Force into balance also required the destruction of the Jedi Order.

    See we're playing with opinions here, only you wish yours to be accepted as universal truth. I can't do that because I don't agree with your take of the situation. I firmly believe bringing balance to the Force involved effecting the light and the dark. First Anakin enabled the the destruction of the light, then years later did the same to the dark. The there was balance.

    All the while representitives of the light and dark still continued to exist in various forms rather than having been consumed in some all reaching Force genocide, but they as being basically a needles in a haystack, were insignificant when considering the balance of the Force.
  25. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    I?m talking about the Mortis trilogy, not Episodes I - III

    Hmmm, I understand what you are saying. So essentially you are saying, to put this in terms of the illustration, that there is a cancer on both the Light and Dark (Sith and Jedi). The Chosen One ? the balanced ?pivot point? ? destroys both the Light Cancer (Jedi) and the Dark Cancer (Sith/Evil)... Without these Cancers the Force falls back into balance (the natural way of things) and the Jedi move from the Light to the ?Pivot Point? (Balance)...

    I like it somewhat. It?s different from what I am saying but I like it... is that what you are saying...

    If so what is the ?Light Cancer?? Evil through no compassion...