Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 315: Overlords Discussion Thread

Um....how can Anakin destroy evil? Evil is something that all of man can do to some capacity (as well as aliens to in Star Wars).

So unless all of Man is wiped out in the star wars galaxy as well as all the aliens with human level intelligence, evil would cease to exist..in THAT galaxy.

That is why i don't mind when the Sith return post ROTJ in the EU. It makes it REALISTIC. I find it dumb to say that when Anakin killed Palpatine, there would be no more evil men, or sith wannabes who would act similar to him. After all if Palpatine became someone who was like evil incarnate....what is stopping it from happening again to another person?

This idea that ultimate evil can't exist anymore post ROTJ because of the destruction of the Sith puts a barrier upon what man can do. Its like saying that no one in the future could become like Palpatine...even though that is ridiculous. Don't evil men, just like the rest of mankind, have free will to?

I just think it is stupid.

Yes it is stupid... however isn't that what the Prophacy says?

What would you say the Prophacy says?

Having read the theories I think they all have some weight. As such I am creating GIF?s for each to illustrate each point so we can see this more clearly (and maybe amalgamate them)...

Opps, sorry. Didn't realise I had time left on the Edit... take this an double post...

Crap... sorry for the TRIPLE post, however my edit time has ended and there are a few things I'd like to set out:

Okay I have changed this somewhat. Essentially I now think the destruction/reformation of the Jedi Order is, in some way, part of the ?bringing Balance to the Force?. It was Anakin?s decision whether he destroy the Order or whether it be reformed by Qui-Gon?s spirit later, however it never-the-less needed to be restructured. In that I think that because the Jedi are flawed they need to be rebuilt after destruction or by Yoda heeding Qui-Gon?s advice. This flaw is the inability to be the ?pivot point?, or Balance, of the Force. It has been noted that the there is a reason the Father disappears as Obi-Wan and Yoda do; I believe this is because he, like Obi-Wan and Yoda (in the OT), is a pure balanced being. By extension this means that Qui-Gon is the ideal Jedi, and what the Jedi should aspire to be. The Jedi in the PT, while they do not cause imbalance, they are flawed with imbalance in the order itself (thus why they don?t ?disappear? after death). Anakin likewise achieves this because of his ability to ?face his guilt? and find balance. The destruction of the Jedi enables Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Luke to rebuild the order once Anakin brings balance ? it was not necessary however it helped bring balance. By building the new Order on balance they in turn, in some way, prevent the dark side from taking root within the Order... because the Sith have been contained it is thus implied that if they are to rise again they must do so within the Jedi Order (because the Jedi take them from birth they can?t develop powers independently). If the Order is balanced without significant flaw the Sith will not rise again and they will not influence the Force to create Evil.

[image=http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/Commander_Gray/FINAL-1.gif]

And regarding anyone who says ?but evil will exist anyway, its what humans do?:

Essentially, as we all know, Evil will manifest in humans anyway. It is an unnatural part of humanity, but it can develop none-the-less, and there is no stopping it. So yes, by destroying the Sith you will not destroy serial killer Bob down the road... however remember the Prophecy says the Chosen One will bring balance to the Force. As such, while the general ?evil people? (like the Hutt?s) in the universe won?t be destroyed by the Prophecy, at the same time they don?t need to. Only those who can ?influence the Force? (Force-Sensitive?s) can use the Dark Side in such a way they create an ?Evil Force?, thus creating imbalance. So while the Evil non-Force-Sensitive?s will exist they will have no connection, and thus no influence over, the Force. Thus they can?t knock it out of balance.

The point is then brought up about Force-Sensitive?s using the Dark Side after the Sith (or a re-emergence of the Sith). Firstly the Jedi take every Force-Sensitive child from birth; this thus means that there shouldn?t be others which can ?develop Force Powers? independently (especially since they have no way of learning it). The Sith themselves were a break away from the Jedi Order... by re-containing them the Jedi eliminate the ?Force Organization? which creates an ?Evil Cancer? in the Force. Once they are contained the flaws which in a way caused the Sith to break away (no true Jedi balance) will be eliminated by Luke Skywalker. Thus he creates a ?balanced? Jedi Order. This in turn, once they have gathered the Force-sensitive?s in the galaxy, should prevent any ?break away? from the Jedi Order.


While I won?t dare to call this definitive I will say I think that essentially sums up my point of the argument...

I don't think we can take that statement entirely literally. Some evil is a natural consequence of human nature and free will. I look at it in the sense of an analogy with Tolkien. There's not much in the way of story after ROTK, but the human capacity for evil will still exist in Middle-earth. It's just that things will be in a much better place ( for a while at least ) due to the destruction of Sauron and avoidance of the "cover all the lands with a second darkness" outcome. Apparently Tolkien wrote somewhere that he envisioned cults of evil, perhaps in the name of Melkor, eventually springing up at some later point, but it wasn't enough to justify another saga.

IMO it's safe to assume that there were others among the Jedi who were "balanced" individuals in this sense, and clearly had much less guilt to overcome, but did not ghost. From the PT and the ROTJ commentary we learn that ghosting is not purely a reflection of one's personal traits but is a learned Force ability, passed down to Yoda and Obi-Wan by Qui-Gon, and passed down to Anakin by Yoda and Obi-Wan. Since, as you say, the Jedi do not cause imbalance, the destruction of the Jedi is not necessary to bring balance to the Force. As Matt Stover said in an interview, Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy in ROTS. For him, ROTJ is a do-over.

This is not covered by the films or really even TCW but sources that have covered it are pretty clear that the Jedi don't take the children. They ask the parents, some allow their children to to taken, others do not.

Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early. This indicates that outside Republic jurisdiction you could have any number of beings with some kind of Jedi potential.

Essentially I think that Anakin brings balance to the Force, destroys evil, however this is only temporary. Basically the Prophecy is about ending the imbalance which has existed for thousands of years. In that I think my diagram may be correct... it is just a repetitive process. Essentially that would mean that once the process is completed it has the potential to repeat. So Anakin does ?bring balance?, he does destroy the Sith and he does destroy the ?Evil Cancer?... however that doesn?t mean it couldn?t happen again... the prophecy merely gives balance for at least a temporary period of time.

Is that what you guys are saying... because I can see how that would work... just keep watching the GIF over and over again...

Here's my theory (sorry for my english):

People have all kinds of feelings, good and bad. Even animals. Happiness, joy, sadness, fear, pride...
These feelings are natural. The energy of these feelings are part of the Force, as Yoda explains in TESB,
and the Jedi draw their strengths from the good feelings, and the Sith draw theirs from the bad ones.

In a balanced world there is the same amount of bad and good feelings. Palpatine shifts that balance to
the dark side when he starts the war, which makes him and the Sith stronger, and the Jedi weaker. People
are more afraid and angry. That is why Palpatine must rule the galaxy as a tyrant; to keep people afraid.
Anakins role is to wipe out the Sith, and bring peace, so that the natural feelings go back to a balanced
state as they should be.

I believe that Prequel-Yoda doesn't know every aspect of the force. No one does. But Qui-Gon figures it out.
He mentions "The living force". Maybe this is the "whole" force, including the force generated by plants,
and not just animals with feelings. This is what he tells Yoda. That there is a bigger force than they have
previously believed. This is what Yoda learns and later teaches to Luke in TESB.

In the EU it has only existed for the last 200 years or so.

That?s a good summery. However the one place I differ is that the Sith themselves ? by existing ? shift the galaxy into imbalance... it is only amplified (goes into ?extra? imbalance) when they are at the peak of their power (i.e. Palpatine?s rise and rule). So I believe that imbalance always exists (in some way) while the Sith are around... it just completely ?overflows? when Palpatine rises... Otherwise really well said.

Regarding Qui-Gon and the Living Force; essentially I think this is the ultimate symbolic relationship. The Jedi themselves had a symbolic relationship with the Force prior to their fall, however it flawed. Symbolic however somewhat flawed (meaning it didn?t cause imbalance in itself, however it wasn?t a ?perfect? symbolic relationship).

To be blunt, unless this can be backed by quotes from George, I am not going to take it into account.

Hasn?t the EU also said that this prophecy has been around for thousands of years? I always thought that meant that the Force has been in imbalance for thousands of years also...

It could also be a matter of this imbalance fluxuating over time and only being made prominent again within the last 200 years...

Not that I know of.

It's from a book whose writer received input from George.

Hmmm... I could be wrong however I believe I read somewhere that it had been a Jedi prophecy for thousands of years and that it was disregarded following the Ruusan Reformations...

My apologies, I was not aware of that. However I guess my basic premise of the prophecy remains (just with a different timeframe for imbalance)... if it has only existed for 200 years however, and the Sith has existed for much longer, why is destroying them essential?

I haven't seen any source mention the prophecy in connection with Ruusan. I had assumed the prophecy first appeared during the last millennium.

Because they still threaten the galaxy/Force regardless of the timeframe.

Here:

Exactly, however the Sith have existed for a lot longer than 200 years... why is it only suddenly now ?out of balance?... If the Sith cause imbalance wouldn?t their existence for the past thousands of years have also been a period of imbalance?

The existence of the Sith probably causes a much greater imbalance in the Force when they are taking/have taken over the galaxy as opposed to when they're in isolation (warring amongst themselves optional).

Although the EU has been silent on the topic as far as I know, it could have been out of balance before; also, not all Sith are created equal. Some Sith are more powerful than others.

That doesn't mean the prophecy predated Ruusan. It just says that because the Sith were believed extinct by the time of Ruusan, the prophecy was disregarded at some later point. Also, as we see in TPM, by 32 BBY not all of the Council were skeptical that the Sith could have returned.

Exactly, that is what I am saying. In my opinion the scales have always been tipped in some way whilst the Sith existed. However this fluxuates with their influence; so I would say there was a ?quell? between Ruusan and Palpatine?s rise, and 200 years ago is when it started to teeter even more towards darkness...

Also I still believe it pre-dated Ruusan... to me it has always been an ?ancient? Jedi prophecy...

...how do you explain the Father ? who apparently hasn?t been able to ?see? the temporal world for millennia - knowing about the prophecy... 200 years, to me, seems far to recent...

Yes, however that doesn?t mean there wasn?t imbalance whilst they were in exile... it was merely a ?minor? imbalance... To me imbalance reaches its peak during the Dark Times...

Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future... the past.

By the same token it doesn't mean there was imbalance the whole time they were in exile. The EU seems to indicate that there was imbalance for part of this period but not the entirety of it.

Right, I'm just saying that the different degrees may have something to do with the answer to the question you're asking (why is the Force not as imbalanced for years when Sith existed leading up to Sidious' galactic takeover).

However don?t the Sith, by existing, cause an imbalance? Wouldn?t the Sith have to disappeared during their exile for there to be a complete absence of imbalance?

Agreed then.

I don't think so.