Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 316: Altar of Mortis Discussion Thread

Fascinating...as a certain pointy-eared Vulcan might say.

One problem: it was very poorly set up if we were intended to "catch this." Even a bit more - a few lines, something, would help to turn this from a mere MacGuffin. I love symbolism, but it has to be there, not buried so deep it feels out of place.

No argument there! I'm still really glad one of us was able to glean that and share it with everyone though, it seems like an important non-parallel, if you will. It also lends a perfect explanation as to why the heck they threw in the whole sword-thing anyway.

P.S. Love the Star Trek reference.

The sword being brought in even calls back to Luke who, taking only his weapons with him, found only conflict when he entered the Dagobah cave.

Luke: "What's in there?"
Yoda: "Only what you take with you"
Luke *takes his weapons*

This episode gets more and more genius, the more you peel back the layers.

There's so much of the saga in there, but it's not just done by scenes that are similar to other scenes, it's done by a lot of symbolism.

Ahsoka being bitten symbolizes that the dark side works like a poison.

Lucas clearly gave this a lot of thought.

So this trilogy is an onion, huh?

While I just love peeling layers apart, it's a shame that to really "get" this to the depth we've been going requires an internet message board. Do I want this an in-your-face Ashoka-obviousism? (new word )

No!

But a bit more set-up would be nice.

I think it's great. Has the discussion ever been this fascinating?

You can say what you will, but at least it's got a LOT more substance than 'Evil Plans' or 'The Academy'.

This is almost like arthouse film, where you need to see something several times and sleep on it for a few days until its full meaning finally hits home.

It's like a record that gets better when you play it more often. Not this poppy, commercial, easy-to-digest pulp we normally get. While a simple pizza can be delicious, I certainly don't mind a more refined dish every now and then.

Yes' Relayer: listened to that about five times before it clicked with me, but now it's a personal favourite.

Terry Gilliam's Brazil: after seeing it at least a dozen times, I still find new layers. Brilliant.

Same with these Mortis episodes. You don't need a message board to get them, but brainstorming together can speed things up considerably, and it's good fun, too. Art that demands introspection and reflection is the best kind, IMHO.

Excellent interpretation of symbolism. The sword might also symbolize the Clone Army as the Jedi want to make use of the clones to protect the Republic, yet in the end it is the Clone Army that destroys them. And it is interesting how the Daughter suggests using the sword, but wants someone else to do the dirty work for her.

I guess it all depends on how you interpret what the Son was originally. According to the Father he was without vanity and as such couldn?t ?tip? into an unnatural darkness. He seems to describe the Dark Side as ?something else? separate from the Son. He seems to have some type of distinction between them. As such I think they both see the Dark Side as something to be banished since the Father says it is ?forbidden? to use it...

I believe the Father?s initial belief was correct in some respects. If Anakin had stayed on Mortis he probably would have kept the Son ?in-line? thus preventing evil enveloping the universe... I also think that if Anakin had stayed Palpatine?s plans would have been foiled. Ultimately I think Anakin was essential to the rise of the Empire... if he were not present I think the Jedi would have certainly be able to eliminate Palpatine or place him on trial.

I agree with you this time Humble - i said the same about the sword- clone war stabbed jedi in the back so to speak..... anyway since no one answered to my stupid question i do it myself- son didn't poison Anakin because he needed him to help in conquering the universe- and that poison kills fast- so it makes sense after all.....

This theory seems wrong. As Filoni says this is all a metaphor. So sure these beings may have at one time existed in the temporal universe, but the daughter has clearly become a symbol of the Light Side, at least in ?Overlords?. By the way, what does she do that is selfish?

Nowhere is it said to be a ?balance of good and evil?, just a balance of dark and light?

They are? The father says it in ?Overlords??

Even if you don?t buy into arrogance being a Light Side flaw there is still stagnation. And no Gry did not say there were zero examples only none that he could think off unless one interprets the Jedi to be flawed. And let me tell you, the RotS novel which was line edited by GL certainly portrays the Jedi Order as flawed.

The Jedi don?t use the Dark Side, but they use a blend of light and dark. Action is a trait of the dark, thus the Jedi must not be purely lig

Given the Audio-Commentary I think I can finally determine what Mortis actually is.

Essentially these story?s ? as Dave said ? are metaphorically representing the universe through symbolism. Essentially Mortis is representative of the Universe/Galaxy and everything there-in is representative of the symbolic Force. Everything else ? such as politics, animals ? has been removed to symbolise that nothing else really matters and that everything that happens is centred on the Force. This is not ?real-time? either but rather a ?sped-up? retelling of the Force from when it was balanced, to the re-emergence of the Sith, to the fall of the Jedi.

When they initially arrive on Mortis >>> Balanced Natural Force (possibly even before the Sith emerge)

When Anakin refuses to stay on Mortis >>> Representative of Force beginning to teeter out of balance because of the people discovering the power of the Darth Path like the Son (unnatural darkness); emergence of the Sith

Fall of the Son >>> Representative of the Sith emerging and bringing imbalance and evil

Battle of the Son and Daughter >>> Representative of centuries of battle between the Sith and Jedi

Sons overpowering of the Daughter >>> The moment when the Dark Side gains to much strength and blinds the Jedi (possibly TPM)

The Savour of the Father >>> Through the Jedi?s selflessness they throw themselves into obvious peril in order to save the ?greater good? (Father)

The Death of the Daughter >>> With the Jedi?s back turned the Sith strike and decimate the Jedi Order (TCW or ROTS)

The Enveloping of Evil >>> With the Jedi Order destroyed the Sith envelop the galaxy with Evil bringing the ultimate imbalance into a galaxy which had already been ?slightly? out of balance since the immergence of the Sith

Placement of the Prophacy? >>> Sows the seeds of Anakin?s ultimate fall telling him a prophecy he want to avoid at all costs

And this, in the context of Mortis, is likely how balance would be restored:

Redemption of the Son >>> Anakin destroys the Sith destroying the corrupted ?darkness? restoring the Balance seen in Overlords

I think that was exactly what i said (or at least what i meant) after we discussed Overlords- back then it was "too complicated"

Anyway i agree it seems probable that Son will bite dust in Ghosts and that foreshadows Vader and Sidious's death in Rotj.... but then again balance wouldn't be restored if daughter would be alive still

Yes, admittedly you were correct and I was completely wrong. However, still, I can only say that in hindsight since, to be honest, you didn?t explain it very well (not an easy concept to outline I must admit though); you talked about ?time travelling? and everything of sort which made it more complicated than it actually is. But for the record, yes, you were correct and I was incorrect.

I thought about that, however since these are ultimately symbolic I don?t think we should think that since the Daughter has died balance can?t return... her death was merely to serve the point of the metaphor. So I think it is likely that balance can be restored since she is only a metaphor and ultimately can?t really ?die?.

As for the Son dying... I am unsure. I think he will simply remain on Mortis and we are left to assume the events of ROTJ ultimately are the undoing of what he represents.

Well explaining stuff like this in foreign language is not that easy- since english is not my mothertongue.....
I literally said "Mortis would be out of the time and space and balance-state already is ended in 'real life' when it still is true on Mortis- meaning that Anakin and others kinda traveled back in time to the parallel universe when all was like it was a long time ago in real universe" i shouldn't have add term 'timetravel' there but that it technically was.....

I was however surprised to see that Son doesn't hate his sister only his father in that i was incorrect what came to predicting Altar's plot.....

Soooo, it makes us cry? Yes...NO! Well, maybe...

Or you leave it out for too long and it gets all brown and-

NO! IT HAS LAYERS!



Very nice finds, Humble. Great work! I rather like the symbolism of the conflict you got there.

My apologies... didn?t mean to offend you or anything, just that I didn?t get what you were saying isolated without this episode to ?back it up?. Nothing wrong about that and it doesn?t mean you are any less of an ?intelligent? person... just a common mistake when we are discussing things that are so complex (I am willing to bet I explained some things poorly as well).

I am likewise surprised you are from Finland; great work articulating your arguments. I am guessing you are fluent in English or do you translate it over the internet?

EDIT: Here is my final word and summery of this. Hanimal helped write this with me. With hanimal?s unique insight I think he removed most of the terminology I used which convoluted the points I was trying to make. He seems to have made it much more ?understandable?.

The Nature of the Force

In reality the Force is a perfect mirror of any religion, and rather takes key concepts and central motifs to construct a unique philosophy. George Lucas is quoted as saying, ?I began to distil the essence of all religions into what I thought was a basic idea common to all religions and common to primitive thinking?. These religious reflections can be seen in everything from Eastern Philosophies, such as Taoism, Hinduism and Buddhism, to Western Judeo-Christian Teachings, as well as various other religions such as Zoroastrianism. They are melded and adapted into a philosophy that is unique unto itself. A common element to all of these traditions is that one cannot effectively define them in words. Words can only approximate the deeper truths. Although the true nature of the Force is not able to be explicitly stated, it is possible to reconstruct the various aspects given in official sources (the theatrical films and series) and meld them into a cohesive unity.

Initially the Force, as stated by Obi Wan Kenobi, is defined as, ?an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.? This vague definition of the force is not clarified much, even with the various words of wisdom provided throughout the original trilogy by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda. Ultimately, the story itself was about defeating the dark side duo of Darth Vader and the Emperor. Beyond that the Force was left wide open to interpretation.

When ?The Phantom Menace? was released, audiences were introduced to the ?Prophecy of the Chosen One.? The Chosen One was revealed to be the one who would bring ?balance? to the Force. However, given the obvious constraints of the films, the concept of what ?balance? actually meant was left largely unexplored, and remained somewhat ambiguous to the audience. Essentially, this left the audience with the general view of the Force as being a battle of ?good versus evil?

It's allright - I just pointed that out so you won't be surprised if i accidentally use crazy words or sentences - just say if you don't get my meaning..... I use translators a bit- but without some kind of knowledge about the language they are pretty useless- they misunderstand stuff all the time i cannot rely on them entirely.... English is easy language to communicate with but very hard to write and speak 100 percent correctly-
one thing that makes easy for Finn to learn English is the fact that tv-programs and movies are not usually dubbed here so you hear English every day....

anyway you summarized the symbolism of the arc very well there- even thought i don't think this arc really changed the Force-concept that much as many claim- at least i always thought it is mixture of Brahman, Yin and Yang etc. with Judo-Christian morality and eastern balance....

It doesn't matter where you place the comma, it won't change the meaning of the sentence. Life creates IT, makes IT grow. The it refers to the Force and no matter where the comma is, the 2nd it can only refer to the force. There is no way to read that sentence as the force makes life grow.

Energies themselves don't grow, but an energy field can grow.

It's not a dogged literal reading of the text, it is what the movie dialogue stated. The Force is an energy field created by life. That's the facts.

Understood mate. Once again I commend you for your efforts here... if you hadn?t made note of being from Finland I probably wouldn?t have noticed to be honest.

It doesn?t actually change anything in my honest opinion. All it does, when you get to the centre, is define what ?good? is. The Force is still everything it once was... we however now know that in Star Wars good isn?t the absence of complete darkness, but rather is the balance of our humanity... which I think is a very good way to look at life in general.

In reality if we were to think of everything needing to be ?perfect? (absolute absence of any fear, aggression or anger) we would truly disconnect from what we are... I think that?s what they are trying to say; it?s only natural to have these ?dark emotions? within you... it is how you balance them with the light which defines your goodness. I think the Father embodies this (as I have said many times); he is a good man who has good intentions, however he is ultimately brought down not by his dark emotions but rather by his natural humanity.

i still hope it won't change the attitude towards me "Oh it's that Finnish guy- are all Finns like that?" -here is actually quite a many with another mother tongue than english.....

btw if you didn't know Finnish is used briefly as "alien language" in SW-material along with many other real-life tongues like Hungarian and Croatian... Teräs Käsi- (steel hand) martial art in EU being one notable example- then Kalevala- homeplanet of duchess Satine is in fact named after Finnish national epic- (kinda like Odyssey or Beowulf)... there is also rumour that says in TPM Watto and Sebulba would speak Finnish- Watto shouting Kiitos (Thank you) and Sebulba answering Ole hyvä(You're welcome) but that doesn't sound like that at all

enough of that subject for now.... it's off-topic anyway .... but interesting fact as Finnish Star Wars -fan....

agreed pretty much - I think that some jedi tried to hide their dark emotions completely making them bit arrogant- denying the darkness just makes it stronger.... still i have bashed Yoda too much of that - he was quite well balanced for a jedi after all...

Great interpretation of the sword as the war, Humble. I've said from the very beginning that symbolically the sword was very well used, it's just the reality within the actions of the episode that were really clichéd and contrived.

This just occured to me: Father's plan all along was to bring Anakin to Mortis so that the Chosen One could replace him, right? To that end he sent out the old Jedi distress code. Well, imagine his frustration if a ship arrives with Kit Fisto and Yarael Poof...

Also, for those that think this whole Mortis story is just a vision or dream within Anakin's head, since when do visions send out distress codes?

Certainly not. I keep an open mind with such things. To be honest if I was like that I would hate every American (no offense to all you Americans out there, ). I myself, given we are on this mini-subject, have relatively recent decedents (within the last 100 years) from Ireland, Britain, Germany, France, Poland and ?Jewish? (can?t really pin-point a country other than that ethic group)... while I have other ?in-law? family originating from the Adriatic Countries (Italy and Greece)... all this while I live in Australia...

In fact, to be honest, I prefer to talk to ?international people? (originating outside of the Americas)...

Anyway, on topic again...

I think the distress code was, as stupid as it sounds, an act of ?the Force?... I think that this is ultimately a metaphor with symbolism (as I have already outlined) created by the Force... it is certainly not ?real? in my opinion given the Audio Commentary...

I also don?t think balance could have been restored by Anakin taking the Fathers place... once again I think it was metaphorical in some way illustrating a point...

This episode was simply another way of retelling the ROTS story.

All?s going well for the chosen one.

Suddenly a person he loves (Tano) is in peril.

Meanwhile the Jedi order (the sister) is in denial, when they accept the truth they abandon
their ideals & actually decide to destroy the darkness (the brother).

Anakin can keep the balance by letting go of his attachment (by destroying Tano), Anakin refuses.

By in effect playing the dark side?s game (i.e. by seeking to destroy it rather then live with it) the light is destroyed.

All that remains is the darkness (the brother) & the balance (the father).

I don?t buy that these episodes are simply visions.

I don?t understand the nonsense about the brother slipping to the darkside when in the previous episode & in the all cast interviews they already confirmed that he was the darkside.

Tano did a bit to well in the duel for my liking.

whole story cannot be of course- but all experiences after being lost in the space may be- anyway how exactly did father sent that code anyway- does he have a secret communications equipment hidden somewhere or what (no it was of course invisible..... or then he can conjure stuff like Talzin)- or is he able to manipulate the midichlorians to create hypercommunications-signal

Monolith may be 'real' but there is no place for an entire planet inside it- Mortis looks surprisingly big to fit in and sky doesn't look like interior of giant spacestation- there is even stars- so inside the Monolith everything is dream from in-universe point of view... well Mortis may still exists in parallel universe and monolith works as portal- meaning that heroes and their craft disappeared from the real universe during that trip or then they were floating there inside the monolith dreaming while their souls and astral bodies were on Mortis in which case it is obvious dream- of course how is shuttle afterwards- is there marks of the trip, leaves of the trees, dirt of the ground or something with it or is damage taken still visible- if not it was a dream- if there is damage or matter from Mortis- then shuttle have been somewhere and monolith can send matter to another universe- better not to tell that to Trade Federation or they dump all their waste there in the Monolith - giant trash bin ....

who built the monolith, how and why or is it even built- it looks like ancient technology to me rather than vision like the planet itself- code probably came inside the structure but it is impossible to examine the structure because it apparently shows itself only for some- or then it sent some kind of 'disturbing signal' that confused the coordinates of shuttle and it really was not in same coordinates as the fleet creating the illusion of impossible situation and leaving the location of Monolith secret.....

Then it could be giant Rakatan mindtrap

plenty of possibilities

then of course my favorite - that they were really existing there inside the monolith but only temporarily- entire world created out of pure midichlorians by mystic w(h)ill of the Force- and 'actors' to act some kind of play to make Chosen One understand his purpose - maybe 3 even believed themselves they are existing but they were not.....

You know..... it can be anything

Brother was controlling the dark side first but he was slipping so perfectly there he lost the control..... still i agree confusing

Ahsoka was not fighting as herself anyway so he may have had darkside boost by son's power (dark side-doping á la Savage Opress) and Jedi tried not to hurt her....