Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 316: Altar of Mortis Discussion Thread

Definately, Swash. I've been an English teacher for the last 5 years, and I've hardly ever edited a paper - even from my advanced students - that has as much control of the language as you have. Kudos to you.

 

I guess that also does mean the Jedi were dabbling in the dark side by getting involved in the war, or at least it indicates that they shouldn't have got involved. (As pointed out by Mace in AotC)

Yes, there is. 'The Force creates life, makes it grow.' The second 'it' doesn't need to refer to the same thing as the first 'it'. Just like in "Away put your weapon, I mean you no harm", the first part of the sentence is backwards, and the second part isn't. It's really open to interpretation, only you don't see it.

And what about the light side embodying creation on Mortis?

Wouldn't you think that means life and the Force are intrinsically linked?

 

Could Life (with a capitol L) and the Force be the same thing? Life is the Force, and the Force is Life (Think Aldaraan and the Jedi Purge being a great disturbance in the Force, because a great amount of Life abruptly ceased).

 

Mortis is not much bigger than an asteroid, so it could fit inside that monolith. Or the monolith could be just a gateway to Mortis. Or size really matters not, and you can fit huge planet-sized Mortis inside a fairly small monolith.

How can the distress signal not be real? It was picked up by the Jedi Temple, the code analyzed in real computers to conclude it was a 2 thousand-year old Jedi code. If that's not real I don't know what is.

Even though, once they go to Mortis, reality is bent at the very least, I think the distress signal proves that the whole thing certainly took place, even if on a different plane of reality. Some mentioned the movie Contact as a similar event, and I think the comparison is solid. In Contact, the fact that she records hours of static when she was only gone for a microsecond proves that something took place, even if on a different level of time-space.

 

Yes! As I was in bed, thinking about it, the same thing occurred to me. The sword symbolizes her/the Jedi's willingness to fight, the conflict/war and perhaps even the very weapon itself: the clone army.

 

Following the conventions of Yoda-speak, if he were to be saying that the Force creates life, wouldn't you expect them to instead have scripted it as

"Life it creates, makes it grow."

rather than the way it is? Because the way it is, there is no garbling. This is one of the rare Yoda sentences that follows normal English.

"Life creates it, makes it grow."

is a perfectly acceptable English sentence, last I checked. It's the same as Yoda's

"Only what you take with you."

in response to Luke asking "What's in there?"

...or are you saying that sentence is garbled as well? Because from where I stand, there is definitely precedent for Yoda to occasionally slip in an acceptable English sentence now and again, especially in his first appearance in TESB. The sentence in question, IMHO, happens to be one of them.

That said, life and the Force are intrinsically linked. I'm just not sure if it's in the same sense as "life creates the Force creates life". The only evidence for that is via the midichlorians, in that there's some sense to what Qui-Gon was saying that to be cut off from the Will of the Force was to be no longer alive. But the midichlorians aren't the Force in and of themselves, they're more like a middle man.

If I had to say anything, it'd be

"Life creates the Force, and without some connection to the Force, life would not exist".

Not in the sense that the Force creates life, but makes it possible? Well, as Yoda says,

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

 

Like I said, it could be like "Away put your weapon, I mean you no harm", where the first part is backward talking, and the second part isn't.

There are no rules for what Yoda does. Sometimes an entire sentence is backwards, sometimes only a part, and sometimes it's perfectly normal. Most of the time when it's normal, it's for better understandability. However, in this instance you can't tell whether it's backward or normal, it's open to interpretation.

But then I say: since when does something make the Force grow?

And again I say: Overlords establishes that the light side of the Force embodies CREATION.

 

Well, it took Liam Neeson to finally nudge me into watching this show, and overall I'm glad I did. I don't have a specific, grand theory about every piece linking up, but I love the idea of Mortis being an amplified, more fluid version of Luke's test in the cave. Just as Vader represented Luke in the cave, I think Anakin can actually stand in for each piece of the Father/Daughter/Son trinity at once. I think it's noteworthy that Son accidentally kills Daughter in his quest to remove Father, just as Anakin's fall is sealed and the lightness inside of him is killed not because he consciously wants to kill the light, but because ultimately he wants to break free from the forces that he feels are holding him prisnor by threatening his life with Padme.

Pretty well-done for quick cartoon thing. I think the weakest link is the Anakin voice actor, as I very much prefer the notes of uneasiness and at times anger that Hayden brought to the character over the show's quip-ready, blandly heroic version of the character, but again overall the show manages to pack a bit of a cinematic punch despite the constraints of its medium. I look forward to the last of the arc.

 

I'm sorry I'm just sitting here trying to get past this but can't. Whats an "Americas"?

 

But the sentence ISN'T "The Force creates life." The sentence IS "Life creates it" where it refers to the Force. i.e. "Life creates the force." The 2nd it does need to and in fact does refer to the 1st it.

Your Away put your weapon line does not contain a pronoun used to refer to 2 different things in the same sentence.

it is an extension on ANH's dialogue. There is no room for interpretation. The line expresses a simple truth.

As far as Mortis, it is a metaphor. Of course Life and the Force are intrinsically linked - Life CREATES the Force.

We still don't know when the vision/dream started. It could have started prior to the beginning of the 1st Mortis episode.

 

The Americas is a continent, otherwise known as the "New World". Apparently DarthPhilosopher favours conversations with people outside South, Central and North America.

 

On Mortis, we see the light side is creating, and the dark side is destroying.

You're not getting what I'm saying. You were stating it couldn't be interpreted any other way than what you said, and I replied, 'yes it can be interpreted differently, like this'. I was merely stating how it could be interpreted as well.

It's your opinion that it's not open to interpreting it that way. My opinion is different. But I'm tiring of this repetitive discussion.

No hard feelings, I think we should just agree to disagree at this point.

 

The dark side is said to be growing in the immediate time frame of the prequels. If a part of the Force can grow, why not the entire thing? Is there some mechanic that states explicitly that "only in part can the Force grow, not the entire thing"?

Like I said, I believe life isn't possible without the Force. Not directly creating- since even Plagueis was only said to use the Force to create life via the midi-chlorian middle-man. I think it's a bit more complex than a simple "life creates the Force creates life"- something more like, "life creates the Force, the Force (through the agency of midi-chlorians) makes life possible".

And in a sense, the true life itself isn't the crude matter anyways, more the "luminous being", as Yoda states. I think it's some complex interplay between the Force, the crude matter, and the midi-chlorians that's hard to pin down in a simple one-to-one equivalency.

But, as you want to drop the whole argument, I'll stop right there. You asked a question, and I answered it, and we can just move right along on another topic.

 

Well, if you put it that way, it sounds a whole lot more reasonable than insisting on it being a strictly one way thing.

 

Signal was picked up by fleet of Admiral Tennant and sent to jedi temple for analysis where they found that secret code buried there- probably rest was nonsense then or maybe something like term "chosen one" was included there also -because why they would sent just him to expore the source without a reason.... ok just speculation for now to patch up their plotholes writers should do that, but it seems they leave it to us viewers...

Maybe she don't want to touch weapons- perhaps brutal killing is just against her nature she can only defend... anyway i already said dagger would be parallel of clone army/war/violence actually i said it before you but never mind.... you probably came up with the same idea by yourself.... the jedi took the clone army to use it against the sith- but ultimately it stabbed them in the back so to speak - same with Daughter, Son and Dagger but more literally "stabbed in the back"in that case

 

Real...vision...I think I'll wait to see what #3 reveals (if anything).

Personally, I find it *unlikely* that Anakin was to physically remain on Mortis to maintain balance between Daughter and Son. In this aspect, at least, I see this as more symbolic - of his willingness to balance Daughter & Son within himself and thus the galaxy.

But what do I know?

Hopefully #3 will make that a bit clearer.

 

Agreed. I think people have misunderstood the audio commentary (but I could certainly be wrong).
Just because it's metaphorical doesn't mean the events aren't actually happening.
He's speaking 'out of story,' if you will, but people are taking it as 'in.'

 

I want in! Yeah we can let it drop, but the line really isn't open for interpretation. It says what it says/means. To interpret it any other way is to add words and meaning that aren't there.

I do think it is clear that, according to the movies, it is a one way thing.

As far as the light side on Mortis, it is a metaphor. It is not really creating anything. Just like Luke really wasn't Darth Vader. Metaphor.

Didn't he compare it to the cave? That would make it "in story."

 

Right, because the whole point of "Overlords" as stated by the Father at the end was that he wants Anakin to stay on Mortis to balance his children, I don't agree with the interpretation that the Son was some kind of "balanced" Dark Side user in "Overlords" and only went truly bad in "Altars of Mortis." If he wasn't already "evil" and power hungry an outside instrument would not have been necessary to maintain balance. You agree with me on certain things and disagree with me on others and it sometimes seems contradictory, I'm sure it's not, but that may be making it harder to get my point across because I don't have a full understanding of your viewpoint.

I disagree with that strongly. The Emperor already had control of the Senate and both sides of the war. Anakin was just a bonus at the end, he already had the galaxy firmly in his grasp. Can you be more specific as to how or in what way it would have foiled Darth Sidious' plans? How would the Jedi have eliminated and put him on trial? Remember, they only find out about him because he reveals himself to Anakin.

(P.S. Sorry for the double-post, I over-loaded the quote capacity again...)

 

The problem is this. You are interpreting her to not be a light sided being due to her actions rather than using her to see the flaws of the light. The light isn?t pure good so she will have some flaws. And neither of those acts are really selfish acts. The first one seems to a ?greater good? mentality thing and the second is just rudeness and arrogance.

The Father says something along the lines of, ?Too much dark or light will be the undoing of life as you know it.?

Perhaps. However there is little proof for this. Also I don?t see why you have a problem with arrogance being a flaw of the light side, especially since the Daughter who is supposed to represent the light clearly is such.

Arrogance does not necessarily mean self-absorbed. As for how it can be a light trait, how about the ?I-art-holier-than-thou? attitude.

Sam Witwer directly states that it is.

Not really. I like Gry?s model with balance in the middle and the dark side on one side and the light side on the other. The Jedi are in the balanced portion although edging closer towards the light. As such they don?t use the dark side nor do they use the light side, but rather use both light and darkness.

Filoni said it is all one big Dagobah Cave moment. Now that doesn?t mean it doesn?t take place on a higher plane of reality however.

 

I see what you're saying, I just disagree. If the Daughter had done something along the lines of refusing to fight no matter what and dooming her planet because of that, that I could see as beeing "too much Light Side" bringing about destruction, for sure. But what she actually did was engage in the promotion of violence after claiming to be non-violent, and b*tch about being touched (in ridiculous circumstances) while calling herself selfless. If you call yourself selfess and exhibit blatant selfishness, that doesn't mean being selfless is the same as or the moral equivalent of being selfish, it just makes you a hypocrite.

I was refuting the notion that stagnation was a "Light Side" trait in my words about Witwer's interview. I've already addressed this line of the Father's several times in other posts in this thread.

The reason I have a problem with arrogance being a flaw of the so-called "Light Side" is because of what arrogance is. According to dictionary.com: "offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride." If one is self-important to an offensive degree, that is not the logical extreme of total selflessness (the admitted "Light Side" trait), but it's opposite (selfishness/greed, an unquestionably Dark Side trait).

If it were stated in the episode I'd give it much more credibility, but what is actually stated and shown in the episode is that the "Light Side" is represented by/causes the growth of life while the Dark Side is represented by/causes the death of life. It can't simultaneously represent growth and stagnation. Those are mutually exclusive concepts.

What is one example of either Qui-Gon Jinn, Yoda, or Obi-Wan Kenobi using the Dark Side of the Force as it is defined in the films?

I thought the full quote was that it's similar to the Dagobah cave and that it's up to the audience to decide how much and what parts of it are "real?"

 

But nothing she has done in selfish. To do something selfish one must be performing an act for their own benefit, and the Daughter has never really done such a thing. Getting the dagger was for the Father?s betterment and yelling at Anakin has nothing to do with selfishness.

How do you take it then?

Yet, none of that detonates selfishness. Selfishness is ?concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.? Arrogance and selfishness/greed are two very different things. And sure it may not be the logical extreme for selflessness but it doesn?t have to be. Not every trait that the light possesses must be selfless, as that is but one trait it possesses.

No they are not necessarily mutually exclusive concepts. Stagnation can refer to the lack of growth, or the lack of change. In this case it is clearly a lack of change, which is a flaw the Jedi Order defiantly has.

They don?t use the dark side? However, the do have use for the darkness such as action and destructive impulses.

Nah, he says we should think of it as the Dagobah tree.

 

On the commentary for this episode when they talk about the series been metaphorical, I think what they mean is that the family are exactly who they say they are but metaphorically their living embodiments of the force.

 

I think i found something worse than he commenatry, the thread commentary's . No serious, the story is great, and I'm keeping it in the universe and its real, regardless of what any fan says. I look foeward to frida's epsiode and finally well get all the anseres. Then its probablr back to the same roger roger, jedi swings a sword and clone kills droid stuff.