Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 316: Altar of Mortis Discussion Thread

EUA? i think this is enough of this pointless nationality discussion for now this is not thread for it anyway .....

oh yes i nearly forget that tower there.....or monastery of Mortis as it is called..... only place where i would like to see Mortis anymore after this would be as secret map in battlefront3 would be 'correct' easily.... but i hope EU won't use it at all..... If green Saruman's staff- tower was Son's place and Monastery is Father's place where Daughter lives then?... oh yes she is selfless... so she has no home sand he lives there in forest

 

European Union of America?

 

what about Expanded Universe of America

Oh yes very very funny

 

Estados Unidos da America, you illiterates.

But yeah, I think we've derailed the thread long enough.

So... dark side =/= evil...

 

I was always under the impression because I think Lucas said it somewhere, but I can't remember where that balance in the Force is all light and no dark. So (SPOILER ALERT) when Vader killed the Emperor in ROTJ, there was no dark left, only light, and thus the Force was brought back into balance.

So this mini-series is making me question that and I'm not sure what to think yet.

 

I wouldn't say that killing the Emperor necessarily killed off the dark side. The imbalance in the Force was caused by the powerful Sith lord using it and focusing it for one specific purpose. That is why they talk about the 'shroud of the dark side' having fallen over the Force. Palpatine's power and his position as Chancellor spread the influence of the dark side more widely than ever before. When the Sith were destroyed that influence was gone. So there will always be a dark side, but without that specific control to give it undue prominence.

 

Hey Tony! Yup, Lucas said Anakin brought balance by killing the Sith, who acted like a cancer on the Force.

Then you have to read the 8 billion page Overlords of Mortis thread to catch up!

 

Lucas didn't say that AFAIK. It's a hybrid of the balance of the Force plotline and the EU retcon that the Force has no sides. However, the balance of the Force plotline is consistent with duality, as we see in the Mortis arc. Killing the Sith is not the same thing as killing the dark side itself.

 

Totally forgot to mention this!

When the daughter shows Obi-Wan the sword, it would have been hilarious but inappropriate if Obi-Wan had said:

"What a piece of junk!"

...Well, I think so anyway.

 

I think some of your argument fails to take into account some of the points I brought up, but I think our interpretations are fundamentally different so quibbling over the details probably won't do much for either of us. The only thing new I would add is keep in mind that most Jedi were killed by Clones, it's really just the last few that are hunted down and eliminated by Darth Vader. I agree not having him would have made some difference to Darth Sidious, but not nearly enough to stop his takeover of the Republic into the Galactic Empire and the start of the Dark Times.

That's a good metaphor, but I don't see it as proof that the balance of good and evil in humans is analogous to Force-users achieving balance by using the Dark as well as the so-called "Light"

 

I would agree with Tarkus that this whole 'new' concept of balance does not mean Jedi should be able to use the dark side moderately. That would be taking it too far, and would totally conflict with the movies. (Not to mention it would be the ultimate fan-fic 'Shadow Jedi' cliché.)

I'm not even 100% convinced of the whole 'everybody needs a little dark impulse every now and then, if only to take action' idea.

When I finally understood the meaning of the sword in this episode, it made me realize this means the light side is being corrupted by the conflict/war, and that the Jedi were wrong to partake in it. (I knew this before, of course, only the episode really underlined that message, in my opinion.)

I'm curious as to what will be revealed in the third part. Perhaps it will make us redefine the whole balance concept all over again. But maybe I'm asking for too much.

 

Hmm, maybe there should just be a thread called "The Force in TCW", or "What the &*%(! Is The Force Anyway?" It's a big topic and it's spilling beyond the individual episode threads at this point.

Okay, so, my understanding is that the destruction of the Sith doesn't destroy the Dark Side. The Force is created by *all* living things, Force-sensitive or not. So it's always been my impression that the Dark Side is fed by normal people behaving badly, and the Light Side is maintained by people behaving nobly and selflessly. The Sith are an abomination because they basically abuse The Force, using it selfishly, which by definition taps into its Dark Side. But it's a symbiosis: the Dark Side gets more out of their ultra-badness than it does from petty larceny and covetousness, so that's when the balance goes wacky.

The Jedi don't really tap into anything other than The Force as a whole. When there is balance (as in, no Sith are about), their job as peacekeepers means that their missions help keep The Force in balance: they listen to its will and generally stop bad people from doing bad things. Nobody's abusing The Force, so their function is to keep the Universe moral and lawful. Hitching their wagon to the Senate makes things rough, since "moral" and "lawful" aren't always the same, but it's overall not too bad. They'd be off dethroning despots, preventing violent uprisings,breaking up the worst of the criminal underworld organizations and so on... basically keeping order, which reflects/maintains balance in The Force.

I think the above explains why the Jedi don't normally refer to a "Light Side"; the will of The Force is just one thing. The Dark Side, being a cancer-- this metaphor really works-- doesn't have any part in the overall will at all; it simply wants to grow, to take over the body and corrupt it. Which is totally mirrored in the behavior of The Ones: total selflessness will inevitably end in sacrifice when confronted by aggression. Daughter was toast before they even met her.

 

I like your train of thought...

So are you thinking the Jedi shouldn't be totally selfless? Or that selflessness isn't the answer?

Just curious.

 

I think many scenarios are very possible (even yours) however it is a far less certain concept. As I said, in one such scenario, as the war begins to de-escalate the Jedi would likely be moved back to Coruscant... this would have removed the Jedi from Order 66...

I think you may be neglecting some of my points here... which is perfectly fine since what you are saying is simply human conditioning. Firstly I am not saying that good and evil need to be balanced. You are confusing good and evil for light and dark... they are very different things (these episodes even suggest the term ?dark side? may be different than simply ?dark aspects of humanity?). These episodes suggest that the Force is inherently good and that in order for it to be good ?light and dark? need to exist. That is not to say ?good? and ?evil? need to exist. Essentially it means that love (light), aggression (dark), fear (dark), kindness (good), etc, need to exist harmoniously and in the adequate balance in order to reach ?Good?. Light and Dark are not Good and Evil. Good and evil are manifested out of how these aspects of the Force are balanced in one?s self. The Dark Side is not the same as these natural ?dark aspects?... the Dark Side is rather unnatural mutation and overexploitation of these ?dark aspects?. Pride, Greed and Vanity. Are these in nature? Animals do what needs to be done to exist. I would argue that these dark aspects are simply aggression, fear, anger, etc... these are natural to have. Are you sometimes angry? Does this make you evil and thus the ?Dark Side?? No. I think Yoda describes these aspects... Fear (natural) leads to Anger (natural), Anger leads to Hate (unnatural), Hate leads to suffering (the end result). These aspects are natural occurrences which need to be balanced. They need to occur in nature and thus need to exist. However we need to balance them ? suppress them if need be ? however they must exist.

Evil on the other hand is when these aspects of the Force are left in an unnatural state; it is where the dark aspects are imbalanced with the light... that creates evil. The dark aspects are not evil in themselves however they can lead to the ?Dark Side? when left imbalanced.

Answer this for me please:

If a wolf were to hunt, chase and kill a dear for the natural survival it is no doubt using some aggression. However does this make the wolf ?evil?? No. It is a natural balance of light and dark to create, what some would argue, good. In humans this is the sae premise, however given our intelligence, we find a different balance. Darkness must still exist for us to be ?human? it must simply be balance.

Good and Evil are not the same as Light and Dark... until that concept is unde

 

Nice thoughts, AhsokaMiro.

And also good points raised on selflessness, Humble. For my part, it's a little dependent on what makes up a selfish act. Is it to get ahead at the expense of others? Or to look out for yourself? Or even to try and get others to see things your way? Plenty of scales, situations, etc., ranging from 'come on, try my food, you'll like it', to 'follow my ideals because they're so much better than yours'.

As I've often thought, the daughter seems to be the extreme of selflessness and 'light'. If we take our cue from her, seems to me that all peacekeepers would wind up sacrificing themselves heroically. Then who'd keep the peace? Of course, this is an extreme, so we take what we will from it.

In that sense, at least a LITTLE concern for self, and to actually think of what's right yourself instead of selflessly following codes and credos (whether they be wise or foolish) might be the ideal balance struck. Meaning, too selfless, and you wind up eager to please and let others be (e.g., going back to Ahsokamiro's mentioning of hitching onto the Senate, the Jedi would think 'well, it is their nature, they can still be good' instead of taking a firmer stance), wasting away eventually.

Maybe it's a little like feeding a family (oh, boy, here comes another illustration XD).
You have the natural concern for your family unit, which would be selfless. But if there are other starving people in the vicinity, then it would certainly be a matter of self-interest to feed one's family over others. Give more than you can afford, you'll pay the price. But surely feeding others would be a noble thing, so there's that whole issue of doing what should be done. The ideal balance in that setting, I suppose, would be to do both: Feed your family, taking care of your duties and yourself, and feed the poor who need it.

 

Well said koonfan. I think what you said is an excellent example why ?dark aspects? of nature need to exist. Firstly, in nature, they need to exist... that is an irrefutable fact. This in turn gives humans our ?natural? emotions (fear, aggression, self-worth). I think this issue of balance merely means what ?balance? makes good? We know both light and dark need to exist. Moderation of these is the key as koonfan illustrated. Without certain dark aspects we, as humans, would degenerate into something which isn?t really ?good? or ?human? in nature.

I think the key to this argument, as I have stated, is to disassociate light and dark from good and evil. Light and dark are natural aspects... too much of either would mean the undoing of life. Good and Evil are merely derived from how these are ?balanced?... if we balance them correctly (as seen in Overlords through the Father) we create ?good?. However if we let this to unbalance we degenerate into evil...

I would argue that even Yoda uses some type of ?selfishness? in ESB. A truly selfless being would not have ?sacrificed? Han and Leia, even for the ?greater good?. This is demonstrated by the Daughter ? she sacrificed herself for the Father even though she knew the ultimate consequences. This is a lesson on how, when balanced, an undercurrent of selfishness (thus dark aspects) can create ?good?. Yoda knew that the ?greater good? must be placed first... unlike what the Daughter believed...

Remove the Jedi from the equation. The Force needs to be balanced, meaning a balance between light and dark (not good and evil). If this were not the case, and all ?dark? was removed, how would nature function?

 

I'm thinking that the Jedi have gotten too rigid about selflessness... they're really supposed to be selfless before The Force, but if they listen to what The Force tells them, it'll often urge some degree of self interest, self preservation, and even attachment. The Force doesn't really want celibate monk warriors... it goes through this whole painful cleansing thing to end up with Jedi who base their "faith" on compassion and faith in family. The Jedi of the PT think they've codified the will of The Force, and they believe it means selflessness always, attachment never. But if they were really listening to the will of The Force, they'd know better. As always, Qui-Gon seems to have been ahead of the game on this.

 

third parts tend to be letdowns in every trilogy anyway i don't think "movies" themselves tell anything clearly about the truth in-universe -it is there in the characters' speeches and none of them are 100% reliable.... Yoda is just one in-universe character just like Emperor- what he says shouldn't be taken as literal truth as many people do... which is confusing to me since Emperor says lot of stuff as well- both of those guys lie- but since Emperor is evil -you seem to automatically claim "evil guys always lie" i don't quite agree with that- many statements of Yoda are pure **** as well.....

movies have these statements -but all of them are made by characters except opening crawls of course..... i don't think movies conflict with idea of jedi being wrong in some things they only show what happens..... and Daughter could've been not taking Obi-Wan to dagger but then Son would have send someone to take the dagger- daughter was doomed anyway- same with the jedi and war it was inevitable i would say

I dunno maybe Lucas thinks jedi are perfect but then I'm disappointed to his universe i don't think anything in movies say Yoda is always right- if he would've been right about Anakin...... Luke would've died aboard Death Star- his jedi ways were useless against the Emperor so actually i see saga supporting the idea of ultimate balance involving darkness as well- Luke used the darkness to defeat Vader but was able to stop in time- so he actually used dark side well and did the thing Obi-Wan and Yoda asked but that was a bad thing it was pure dark side -because jedi were wrong and Anakin was not different than Luke in his soul- he was just failed in balance and felt to the darkness- when throwing his saber away Luke used the way of the light side gaining balance but if he would've been used only the light side he would've been little pieces on the floor- therefore both are needed...

In fact jedi of old were right about everything they used darkness as well when they fight against the actual Dark Side- but what comes to attachments jedi were blind to see how they were attached to the Republic and went down with it- they defended it even though it was corrupted- there is same prob as in personal attachments actually....

Honest selflessness is possible only through natural selfishness.... i've heard of one guy who said love your neighbour as yourself... that's not tha

 

And if you have to admit the signal did happen, you have to admit that someone sent it, and that someone had a purpose in sending it.

 

That is the question. Did someone have to send it? Is it not possible, given everything which has happened, that the Force manipulated a signal. Like an act of God... I?m not saying this is what happened or that someone didn?t send it, but rather that it is not conclusive.

 

That would really turn the Force from mystical energy field to bearded old guy in a cloud. Creating a distress call with a built-in coded message compatible with one the Jedi used? That's a very technical thing for the life web to execute, or care about.

 

Perhaps... however I wouldn?t put it beyond the realm of possibility considering what this arc has provided so far. I guess this all boils down to how ?tangible? the events in this arc are. We all know they are metaphorical and symbolic; however it is unclear whether this is a tangible world or simply an apparition in every sense. Was it ever explained how ?real? Vader was in the cave when ?he? appeared to Luke. Was it a physical tangible Vader or a manifestation in Luke?s mind created by the Force...

I think all this will be answered at the end of the next episode... until then all we know is that it is metaphorical and symbolic of the ?history? and ?nature? of the Force...

 

there was enough bearded old guys in this arc
Anyway Force can be some kind of sentient god - i don't think it should be explored- it may be but it may be not.....it's mystical yes.... but technology is created by sentient mind which is creation of life so yes technology shouldn't be impossible for Force to "understand" if it is capable of creating sentience it shouldn't be incapable of understanding creations of that sentience.... damn hard to explain....but i think we have some kind of understanding problem here- same with midichlorians and stuff .... still will of the Force is not E-mailing very often but maybe it did now.... since code was 'buried' inside the message i would say rest of it was nonsense and it could be mystical "coincidence" how magnetic field of dust or something in Chrelythnium-system created a signal "by accident"

 

Not if what the movies said is true.

1.) energy field created by all living things
2.) Life creates the Force

 

Who said that in the movies though? Do we believe him? Is that a subjective view or universal truth?

Thats the buttons this story arc is looking to press. I hate it myself but its pushing that Yoda and crew were either ignorant, or liars, or both.

It's a dangerous tight rope for the franchise to walk, completely unneeded so far as I'm concerned. Yet here we are.