Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 316: Altar of Mortis Discussion Thread

Did anyone notice at almost the end of the E. 316 Preview, how the Son's voice changed to sound just like Palpatine's? I thought that was cool


Just adding some black highlight for those that want to avoid spoilers, though that is minor.

 

It doesn't. "The shroud has fallen" means that the shroud is in full effect, not that the shroud has disappeared.
See Stover's Shatterpoint for further confirmation of this.

 

Well, this is my own interpretation of Anakin's role in the prophecy.

I've been reading the works of Joseph Campbell lately. The Hero with A Thousand Faces is a work by him which presents the theory of the "monomyth", which, many of you probably know, is what inspired Lucas to create Star Wars. Its about how each of us are connnected with the desire to know oneself, and as a result many fictional tales about a normal person setting out on an adventure have the same structure.

The "heralds", as Campbell describes them, are the early manifestations of whats to come in the protagonist's life. For Luke, it would be the message from Princess Leia, the Tusken attacks and the subsequent rescue by Obi Wan, and the murder of his aunt and uncle. Each of these occurences escalates in intensity, with the last herald usually being the "point of no return", when the Hero realizes there is no turning back and that he has a greater place in the universe.

On the flipside, there is such a thing known as the "rejection of the call", when the would be hero decides to stay rooted in the physical world and rejects his higher purpose, or is kept in the physical world by force. Anakin's heralds would be the meeting of Qui Gon, the podrace, and the revelation of his destiny as the Chosen One. When having this whole vision of Mortis (which I firmly believe to be all metaphorical, symbolic, not to be taken literally) the Father asks him to stay on Mortis and keep the force under balance, Anakin rejects the offer and decides to stay in the physical world. This is symbolic of his desire to keep Padme alive over his desire to fulfill his destiny. Keeping Padme alive is a physical desire, one of the flesh.


In the "monomyth", the failed hero often continues to fall into darkness until another manages to pull him out. In the same way Sleeping Beauty is in limbo until the prince pulls her out, Anakin continues to slip until his son, Luke, pulls him out, and he destroys the Sith.

However, this does not mean he fulfilled the prophecy. Overlords made it clear the chosen one ois to keep the force under balance, not make one side stronger than the other. By killing the sith, Anakin is NOT fulfilling the prophecy, he is merely redeeming himself for the chaos he's brought upon the galaxy by rejecting the offer to be the chosen one. Luke, on the other hand, is a symbol of hope, a symbol of what his father could not acomplish.

Which is why I believe the Chosen One is Luke, not Anakin. Anakin was SUPPOSED to be the Chosen One, but rejected that call, only for it to be passed onto Luke.

 

Actually, he is, according to Lucas. Because the Sith push the Force out of balance, the destruction of the Sith leaves the Force in balance. One side is not stronger than the other. Overlords is not changing the fact that the ending of ROTJ is the fulfillment of the prophecy.

The Chosen One has always been Anakin. Lucas confirmed this, and this whole TCW arc is about Anakin's status as Chosen One, not Luke's.

 

Yeah, although I do like your theory, IG2000, Luke actually had a father. It seems to be implied in TPM that the Chosen One would be born of the Force itself, like Anakin.

Which is +1 for the Force creating life, by the way.

 

I know it isn?t a solid metaphor however that isn?t the point. I do study this stuff so I do know what I?m talking about. I do realise that Communism and Capitalism are geo-economic structures whilst Fascism is more of a socio-political structure. So, yes, Fascist societies are typically also capitalist economically. What I meant was that both the ideology of Communism and the ideology of Fascism are strictly opposed in every sense. As such they would lie at different ends of an ideological structure. It was perhaps wrong of me to use Capitalism as the ?middle ground?... perhaps Liberalism is a better term... in fact that is the term I should have used (it was late and I couldn?t think of an accurate term to describe democracy... so completely disregard the Capitalist reference since it makes no sense in this metaphor. My mistake.). My point is Liberalism is the middle ?un-extreme? ideology whilst Communism and Fascism are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum. One promotes the individual before the state, while the other promotes the state before the individual (It should be noted that Communism is both a economic and a political system, and as such it is possible for it to be opposed by Fascism). Yes, I know that it doesn?t work perfectly (since Liberalism isn?t exactly always regarded as perfectly in the ?middle?, however it serves the point well) however it was used to illustrate a point, which I perhaps didn?t articulate well enough with my choice of terms. Sorry to go on a tangent, however I have studied this stuff thoroughly.

Here is essentially a diagram of what I was attempting to say:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_86-voePTlEE/Sh6OR2kClkI/AAAAAAAAACM/ugLPS4gzGr8/s320/political+spectrum.bmp

Anyway moving on...

Fair enough. I always thought the shroud was present before the war began (given the ?dark side clouds everything?) however it seems I was wrong in that.

 

By killing the Sith, Anakin is not fulfilling the prophecy. But by killing the Sith AND all the Jedi from Order 66 onwards, he is bringing balance to the force by destroying all manifestations of pure lightness or pure darkness ie. the Jedi and the Sith. The only remaining trained force user after his death (Luke) has stepped into the darkness and has witnessed before how it corrupts the soul, but unlike the previous Jedi, still retains his passionate attachments to his friends and family. So Luke is not of the Light side OR Dark side after ROTJ, he is balanced, a beacon of darkness within the light. And he will go off to train others in the way of the Jedi FROM A BALANCED JEDI'S POINT OF VIEW. So although Luke is the first balanced Jedi, Anakin is who created the balance (using Luke as a catalyst).

 

The Jedi are not pure light. The Jedi are capable of existing without forcing the Force into imbalance. The reason for this is because the Jedi are not absolutists and allow the dark side to exist whilst not allowing it to be used. The Sith however exploit the pure dark side. Anakin did not need to destroy the Jedi.

 

I think old order was absolutistic after all- they denied the dark side's existence in them- not in Force but in themselves- creating this shroud of darkness around them limiting their own vision- the "weakness" Yoda spoke of in AOTC was probably this.... Luke's new order realised this better than anyone making new order of jedi much more balanced than old one.... Anakin fulfilled the prophecy by destroying both jedi and sith- it was not the only way though- he could've had peaceful solution for the jedi- he did wrong when he killed them but it was another way to fulfill the prophecy- but if he would've killed the sith first then most of the jedi would've realised that sith were not only reason for the imbalance- but also those jedi who denied their darkness...... the Daughter that is- in the metaphor of Mortis i think....

 

This again? The dialogue in TPM in no way implied the Force created Anakin. The dialogue said it was possible that he was conceived by the midi-chlorians.

-1 for the Force creating life

 

If you refer to the article I posted in the ?Overlords? thread you will notice I personally don?t want to draw a conclusion on the matter just yet. Ultimately it is possible that the Jedi over-exploited the Light side and caused imbalance. The certainty in this situation is that the Sith exploit and cause imbalance... as such because both the Jedi and Sith were both ultimately destroyed it can be left open to interpretation. Was the destruction of the Jedi part of the prophecy or was it an unnecessary detour? Ultimately in the final accounting it depends on your point of view...

 

Good point

Originally Lucas thought Plagueis or Palpy could've been his "father" that way using the manipulation of midis to conceive him... neither of those ideas is used in ROTS though so Anakin is still mysterious son of the Force.....

 

Mate, Lucas has rejected this interpretation in the past. It is the destruction of the Sith and the defeat of the Dark Side that creates balance. If Anakin had defeated Palpatine alongside Windu at the end of ROTS then the prophecy would have been fulfilled then.

According to Lucas the Dark Side is imbalance, the Force (the so called light side) is balance.

 

Well, that's you interpretation of it. For one, Lucas never called the Force "the Light Side". It is the Light Side of the Force, which means the Dark Side of the Force is just as much a part of the Force. Dark Side dominance is imbalance, not the Dark Side itself. The ideal state of the Force is in perfect balance between Light and Dark.

 

I don't think Lucas ever really refers to the Light Side as the light Side. He just says "the Force" and "The Dark Side of the Force".

"Which brings us up to films IV, V, and VI, where Anakin's offspring redeem him, and allow him to fulfill the prophecy, where he brings balance to the Force, by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
- George Lucas

 

Yeah, I don't think he ever mentioned the light side in the films. But he just did in the series.

Yes, destroying the Sith restores balance, because they abuse the Dark Side, bringing forth evil. That doesn't mean that "destroy Sith" = "destroy the Dark Side", it only means to destroy that agent which is tipping the scales.

 

I beg to differ that hhe didn't use the idea in RotS because Palpatine states that Plagueis could manipulate the midis in order to create life. Lucas used thhe idea in a more subtle way instead of the direct way he originally had planned (Palpatine admitting to doing it), but he still used it nonetheless.

Even if he left that completely out of RotS, Anakin still wouldn't be the mysterious son of the Force. He would be the mysterious son of midi-chlorians (microscopic organisms).

As far as Anakin and Mortis go, I think it is similar to Luke and the cave. It isn't real, it is manifesting Anakin's internal struggle just as the cave manifested Luke's internal struggle.

 

The Father did in the series, I don't really trust him as a source.

That's your interpretation . Nowhere does Yoda or any other Jedi say that the Dark Side is needed, just this highly dubious Father character who believes that intimidation and hostage taking is the way to bring out the best in people. I'll admit it's possible that Lucas has changed his mind and decided that the Dark Side is necessary, but I do not believe that was his intention while creating the prequel films. I still hope that the Overlords of Mortis turn out to be lying through their teeth.

 

You were not wrong in that.

By the same token, nowhere does Yoda, any other Jedi, or Lucas say that the dark side is to be destroyed.

Lucas hasn't "changed his mind". That is spin. The idea that the dark side is a fundamental part of the Force is consistent with everything he has done so far. The PT never said that the dark side could or would be eliminated. If Lucas has done anything, he has simply contradicted the Force revisionists. He is not responsible for the revisionism in the first place.

 

Yes it is.

Yes, it is quite possible that Lucas idea for the Force started out as Judo-Christian "good vs. evil", but in time have developed into a more oriental "balance" line of thought, and so he's reshaping the Star Wars mythos to reflect his new philosophy. Or it could be that he either failed or chose not to convey this un-western side of his philosophy in the orginal films, for whatever reason, and now that he gets the chance with TCW he's making his grand vision clearer.

 

Or the Father could just be another evil lying "it's all relative, now lets go eat some babies" bad guy.

 

Yes.... he could. But I find that very unlikely and a huge waste if it turns out to be true.

 

I'm just hoping that this whole arc turns out to be a bad dream of Anakin's.

 

Lucas did decribe the dark side as a cancer on the force, so i'm not sure how "necessary" lucas views the dark side. The view of dark side = cancer certainly doesn't indicate a view of it as being equal to the force (i.e. eu called light side).

 

I'm sort of with GM in the sense that I think there's only one Force, and that it can have two aspects; light and dark.

Using the dark side corrupts, manipulates, twists the Force to do 'unnatural' things; the light side guides, or obeys commands to do things that are more 'natural'.