Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 316: Altar of Mortis Discussion Thread

WHAT.

*still in shock*

 

Son calling Anakin "Friend" - reminds me of how Palpatine called Vader "Friend".

Anakin said he wouldn't join the dark side "willingly". By adding "willingly", he's leaving open the probablilty that he would join the dark side.

The tower of the Son - definitely a homage to the Tower of Barad-dur from The Lord of the Rings.

The little creature Son changed into reminds me of Gollum.

So that's what happened to Ahsoka - Son injected her with the "venom of the Dark Side". I thought Son would possess her, and Daughter would need to perform some sort of exorcism to free Ahsoka.

I heard Ahsoka talk, but the words she used are similar to the thoughts Anakin have had throughout his training and the Clone Wars. He voiced them to Palpatine, and in the end to both Padmé and Obi-Wan.

I was kinda disappointed with the fight between Son and Daughter. If they were all-powerful Force entities, I thought they would use displays of the Force that we haven't seen before in either the movies, novels, comics, or cartoons. Then again, maybe I was asking for too much in that regard.

Ahsoka seemed to walk away with no memory of what happened. That's wrong. She should have some memory of what happened. We would see her coming to terms with what she had done.

I'd make a comment about the next week's preview, but I'll do that in the right thread.

 

Actually, the first thing Son's transformation that he used to get close to Ahsoka with reminded me of was a really, really twisted Yoda when he was playacting at being senile. Which is how I immediately knew it was the Son- the imagery of a twisted Yoda just pointed me right there. I mean, from the look to the dialogue, imagine pretend-senile Yoda when he first meets Luke, only really twisted. That's what the Son's disguise was.

And, well, I have to say I felt that was a really nice touch, if that was indeed what they were going for.

I actually liked the episode- the Daughter turned out to be pretty dang benevolent in the end, sacrificing her life to save the Father- and with her last, dying act, saved Ahsoka. Did she make mistakes along the way? Yes. They led to her death? Yes.

But she tried. Even if it took some convincing by Obi-Wan, I like the character far more now, and feel a lot better about where they're going with this new view of the Force- especially since the Son is said to be descending into the dark side.

He can't descend into himself, can he? No more than the Daughter can be simply aligned with herself (as the opening voiceover said she was aligned with the light side).

May the Daughter rest in peace. She was flawed, but then, so are we all.

 

So at this point, it's still quite hard to tell exactly how these "force-wielders" work.

1. They still talk of the son and the dark side separately, and the fact that the daughter died obviously didn't destroy the light side entirely... yet there is no doubt that these 3 somehow control the might of the force itself. With the light side being significantly weaker after the daughter's demise.
2. This seems to be somewhat of an explanation for why the dark side gains so much strength and empowers the sith. Exactly how, I'm not sure...
3. They talk of the war escalating... I wonder what affect this will have on the rest of the series? Will the battles get bigger and more dangerous?
4. This may well explain why the Sith need to be destroyed to weaken the dark side and bring the force back into balance. The father laments his choice to bring the chosen one to Mortis and may well have been wrong about the entire "Anakin will maintain balance only when he sits on my throne" take on the prophesy. It seems even he didn't expect that his daughter would perish this way.

Overall, I liked this episode, but this whole setup is still quite confusing. If it's all a symbolic vision of the force's current status in the galaxy, it's a very interesting one. But if the force is literally thrown out of whack because of a behind the scenes family fued between 3 mortal demi-gods, I'm not sure what to make of it.

 

The only thing I really got out of what happened in this one was how Anakin accidentally killed Padme and her last birth was to give birth to Luke, a hope for the future... but why couldn't the Son use the blade twice? Why did he have a nervous breakdown when he accidentally killed his sister even though that was what he was trying to do the whole episode? Is the blade only to be used once? Like once one side of the force uses it against the other it nullifies its own power so it can't be used against the person who originally used it? Why the hell would an all powerful embodiment of the force itself need to use a ship to leave the planet? Was Ahsoka dead or dying? What made the Father reawaken spontaneously? Why was it so essential to the story that he be knocked out even though it ended up having little to no impact on the plot? Was Obi Wan suggesting to just abandon Ahsoka? What the hell was the overall signficance of the blade and what is it supposed to represent?

I'm going to bed.

 

So...

I guess there's weird, and then there's just way out there WEIRD.

I'd have really liked this story arc as a stand alone, not tied to the universe at all. Maybe a lengthy bad dream or something. It's chipping away at too much, especially the movies. The preview for next week really bothered me, messing with what should be absolute concrete canon. Won't get into it of course...

And they've lifted a WHOLE lot from other stories/movies/fantasy junk in this. That kind of makes me uncomfortable. Be original. Unless they've run out of story lines, kind of like the rest of the entertainment industry.

That said, this one was better than last weeks. Solid B grade, only drug down by too many outside of star wars influences that were VERY obvious and the fact that as star wars, it's waaaay far off from what you'd think. That can be good, sometimes, but here it just feels...weird. Probably a B+ on the second watch. Hope they don't ruin the movies...

 

Also... as for the Son, Gollum, Yoda figure...

Even though he bit her, he still tempted her first. I wonder if the bite was a symbolic way to show her fears making her fall, or just a literal poison that turns her against her will? There was definitely some emotions and bits of truth in the things she said to Anakin at times. Insecurities. Fears. Annoyances. She hated being called "Snips", interestingly enough.

I'd like to imagine that her fall wasn't completely against her will.

 

Not sure what I think of this episode yet. I'll say just in terms of the visuals and the action we got I loved it. Ahsoka vs. Anakin and the Brother vs. Sister fight was awesome in just about every way. I was wondering how far they were going to go in terms of metaphor and parallels with the trinity of characters in relation to the overall plot of Star Wars and in comparison to Anakin's character arc and this episode showed that they basically are sticking pretty close in terms of mirroring the overall journey.

They threw in neat mythological elements like the sword, but it seemed sort of out of place and I'm not sure what the purpose was other than to give a reason for how you could destroy an abstract concept like the light side. I like how the darkside guy was remorseful about killing his sister and how they tried not to portray him as someone with purposefully evil intentions but just at his nature impulsive and destructive. In terms of Anakin succumbing to the darkside we have this same sort of interaction where he leaves the light not by choice but by a series of progressing mistakes and a loss of control over his impulses. Also they went a great route with the dark winning out and foreshadowing the fall of Anakin because now when taking these episodes into consideration and watching ROTJ it sort of makes Anakin's redemption all the more significant in how he not only restores balance to the force by destroying the overabundance of evil but also gives birth (metaphorically through Luke and Leia) to a new light in the galaxy.

Of course I'm wondering if Daughter is really dead of if she will be healed or partially recover next episode cause killing off the light side entirely seems sort of silly when you still have all those jedi around using the force.

I would say this episode was a good middle to the trilogy because it brings up all of these questions you want answered and it provided very entertaining imagery to go with it. I know this isn't speculation for next episode or discussion of the preview for next week but I will say I'm eagerly awaiting the conclusion and hoping it answers not only some questions I have about this arc but about the trilogy as a whole. It is either going to be the best episode of the series so far in terms of lasting impact on Star Wars mythos or the worst and is sure to be controversial either way.

 

Oh and the way Son said "Sister" sounded so very identical to Vader's "Sister" in ROTJ I think it was.. may be wrong on that.
Some things made me tilt my head in this episode but I LOVED it.

 

I missed the first four minutes... is that when the conversation between the son and Anakin took place, the one that was shown in the sw.com preview?

Well, all I can say is that there are some inconsistencies/plot holes/bad writing here if the son and daughter are meant to "embody" the two sides of the force and yet they seem to be... mortal? Those two propositions are obviously irreconcilable because the light side lives on after her death. The force has to be bigger and stronger than any of the three on that planet, but they apparently hold, as individuals, a greater influence on the force and its various aspects than other beings in the galaxy (hence the Sith growing stronger because of the son's victory, but the light side remains though the daughter dies). I think the fact that the son "falls to the dark side" in his father's words and regrets killing his sister shows that he is not actually "the dark side."

As far as the son needing a spaceship... does this remind anyone of a rather bad Star Trek movie?

"Excuse me. What does God need with a starship?"-Captain Kirk, Star Trek V.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to criticize the episode on this point, but that's what it reminded me of (and yes I agree with someone above that the tower looks straight out of LOTR, and the "creature" looked a lot like Dobby the House elf). What I'm really excited about is next week's episode. The only way I can figure out that this story arc can work and not seriously alter future events (you know what I mean if you saw the preview for next week) is that our three heroes must suffer some kind of amnesia about what happened on the planet, or the planet and its inhabitants cease to exist/cease to matter in the future.

Also, I think it's cool that the father, like the Jedi after him, regrets putting his faith in the chosen one whose influence turns out to be anything but good (granted its not Anakin's fault in this case).

Anyway, I can't wait to see how they wrap it all up next week.

 

What a terrible episode. I don't even know where to start. What does this have to do with Star Wars, really? What does this have to do with anything? This doesn't feel like Star Wars at all. It seems like they're just doing these episodes for the hell of it, for George to practice his amateur philosophy. These episodes are more metaphor than they are reality, which is just getting annoying. The all too obvious attempts at references to the movies were so disgustingly awful I thought I was going to vomit.

At the end, the Father mentioned the Son needed a ship to leave. What? Someone with that much power needs a ship? "What does God need with a starship?" came to mind. (I'm not saying they are Gods) If the Son needed a ship to leave the planet, why did you invite people with a ship to visit? BTW, the Son has at least a two minute head start and he's flying.

Obi-Wan doesn't even need to be there, at all. His only role so far has been to make smartass comments. Ahsoka hasn't really taken anything away from this experience so far, especially if she doesn't remember her dark side trip. She doesn't need to be there, either.

Ahsoka is being restrained, yet still has her lightsabers. Why not just pull the lightsabers to your hands and cut yourself loose?

The sword? Really? Great plot device, seriously.

Their attempt at portraying Ahsoka's dark side was just laughable, with horrendously cliche lines and disturbing sexuality.

The Father, Daughter and Son play Force pinball with each other, was that supposed to be cool?

Again, the metaphors and references were all too obvious. The Daughter refusing to get involved, the little Force push contest between the Son and Daughter, the sacrifice, etc were all just awful.

Can't wait for this garbage to be over.

 

Once again, THIS IS HOW ALL EPISODES SHOULD BE MADE!

Not to say all episodes have to be so epic in scale, but it was obvious great care was put into all aspects of this episode. Animation, story, even the dialogue wasn't half bad. The creators have certainly set a precedent for quality. Let's see if they choose to stay on this level.

Anyway, on to the episode at hand. Let me start by saying I love, love, loved Ahsoka. I'm usually completely, totally indifferent to her, but tonight I actually was drawn to her character. I loved how her dark side alter-ego pointed out ways in which Anakin was failing her. We finally got a look beneath the happy-go-lucky "Snips" shield and saw a litke of what made her tick.

The Son was the perfect embodiment of evil. The various shapes he morphed into fit existing portrayals of evil where malevolent people take the form of unsuspecting creatures. His masquerade as the little gnome talking to Ahsoka reminded me of the temptation of Eve by the snake in the Book of Genesis.

RIP Daughter. Sure, she didn't do all that much, but her death is obviously having some big consequences on the galaxy. It leaves the question of how balance can be restored? Sure we know it will hapen in time for ROTS, but how??

Overall, a perfect episode in every sense. 10/10.

 

I think...well...no, I don't know what to think.

No, that's not right.

The truth is, this trilogy represents images, thoughts, and ideas, that are best left to each of us to interpret and know for ourselves.

I loved this episode quite a bit, but any interpretation of it that I could voice, I don't think would have any meaning. It would only have meaning for me and no one else.

It's stunning. It's graphically beautiful. It simply, is. There's little more I can say.

EDIT:
Well...ok, one question.

What disturbing sexuality was there in Ahsoka's dark side portrayal? I apparently missed it entirely.

 

From sw.com episode guide of last week's "Overlords" episode:

"This trilogy of episodes dives into concepts of the Force and ancient Jedi prophecy like never before, and represent an unusually deep exploration direct from George Lucas of some of the saga's biggest concepts. While there will undoubtedly be questions about how much that is experienced in the Mortis realm can be defined as "real," the answers will surely depend on your own point of view."


I guess that is the Clone Wars team's "get out of jail" card for this arc for those who are concerned that it is changing too much in the continuity and conflicts with Episode 3. You can read a lot of a little into these episodes, but they may not really have that much of an impact on anything by the time 9 pm rolls around next Friday and the arc is brought to an "end."


Edit: Also, maybe the "dagger/sword" thing is just an underdeveloped metaphor that we'll have to figure out for ourselves? I wish they had a bit more time to develop some of these interesting metaphors/ideas being portrayed in this Mortis arc.

 

-That troll thing was creepy. I kinda wish it was a separate character.

-Did I hear Palpatine's voice somewhere?

-Still not liking the green hair... the Daughter overall is my least favorite design of the Force-wielder family.

-I think I like Ahsoka better when she's crazy and possessed by dark side venom.

-I was hoping the Son and Daughter would do some martial arts fight instead of wizard-like blasts. Or maybe a mix of the two.

-Liked the falter in Anakin's voice asking them to save Ahsoka.

-Wouldn't the Son die if the Daughter dies? With the 'dark and light cannot exist without the other' thing.. I guess not.

-Next episode.. looks pretty cool.

 

Well that wasn't as revelatory as last week. Pretty much confirmed my belief they were still just force users, magic dagger or not. Disappointed "the war will get worse" is the only consequence of the Son gaining power. Also a bit confused given the dark side was already in ascendence as of AotC.

I was expecting more from the son/daughter conflict. And from the lightsaber duel, really, though I suppose Ahsoka shouldn't be very good with her new style yet.

Still holding off overall judgment till after next week.

 

This was a good episode but not great.
It did suffer from the middle act syndrome that Monster did,but seeing Dark Side Ahsoka was pretty cool.
Next weeks episode looks to be much better too,but I'm still not feeling "Game Changer" with this trilogy.

 

Did anyone else think that when the Son electricuted the Father for the first time, his screaming "I hate you!" was sort of an allusion to the final duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan? It seemed kind of fitting...

Overall, I was impressed by this episode. The last few episodes, as well. I was beginning to think that season three was going to be very dull, considering how many episodes had focused on Padme and the senate. I'm hyped about next week's. If they do decide to branch off in an AU direction, I'll be happy. I love AUs.

 

The Son mentioning "your point of view" was just hysterically unsophisticated, just like the rest of the metaphors and references. Not to mention it was just nonsense. Sometimes evil is just evil, from every point of view. Everything is just so painfully obvious, the references/metaphors are presented with the subtlety of a Death Star.

 

Behind the usual references to different films, I feel that these episodes "distastefully" insert references to the actual saga. It just doesn't seem/feel right.

 

Overall really wasn't as great as Overlods(which was phenomenal) but overall a good episode. So many parallels to other dialogues throughout Star Wars history. "I hate you" reminded me of Obi-Wan and Anakin on Mustafar, "..my friend." reminded me so much of Palpatine and Vader.

I loved Witmer as the Son though, I personally feel like he really nailed the character's voice.

The sword and the tower though were just off, especially the sword. Something just didn't seem right with it. I didn't like it too much. Oh and the spaceship thing was a joke. Wasn't the shuttle destroyed?

Action wise and visually though this was outstanding, both duels were awesome but this episode really had no need for Obi-Wan.

Now the next episode...AWESOME. Though I do wonder how they are going to pull it off.

 

Um.

That was... interesting...

Darkside!Ahsoka wasn't creepy at all to me. Eckstein's voice was just kind of laughable, and it just felt all "rebellious teenager ANAKIN DOESN'T LIKE ME!"

That being said, the scenes with her being tied up were disturbing -like that "Lolita" one from the comic books. Not cool (as well as the fact that there are two women on the planet; one dies, one goes Dark Side -but that's not relevant).

I didn't hate it, though. The beginning was good; I liked the dream sequence, and I enjoyed the bantering between Obi-Wan (although could they seriously not sense the Dark Side being in the ship? They're slacking).

The animation was strong. The duel with Ahsoka was very well done; I enjoyed that part. The Daughter's death was effective, and went over about as well as I would expect.

However, I disliked the implications of the Light Side dying. Although the arc isn't complete and I'm surely just jumping to conclusions, it seems like the war escalated as an effect of Light Daughter's death, and I'm not very fond of the idea.

Next week looks good, though. I'm looking forward to that.

 

It kinda cheapens Palpatine's rise to power, as if some lame power struggle between three completely metaphorical/mythological creatures was the real key to his victory. It makes it seem like he played a lesser role than we think he did and was just fortunate to get a powerboost from the Son. I like it better when events are decided by a person's actions and not fate or divine influence.

Palpatine wasn't an evil mastermind, the Son was just buffing him and debuffing the Jedi while the Jedi didn't have their own Light Side Final Fantasy avatar supporting them.

 

I don't see how this diminishes Palaptine. The Sith don't create darkness, they take advantage of it. So him receiving a "power boost" fits right in with already established canon.

 

I see what CT means in a sense. Palpatine seems to not be behind his rise, but rather, sadly, the son set it up for him.