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Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 317: Ghosts of Mortis Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by Garth Maul, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    That 'plot MacGuffin' has more meanings than you can possibly imagine. :p

    But seriously, it changed my entire perception of the episode when we managed to come up with some theories. It really is the most important thing in the episode, although it would appear otherwise at first glance.

    We theorized about it in the 'Altar' thread and came up with several layers of symbolism. If you're interested, it more or less started on this page.
     
  2. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011

    To you, to me it is just a deus ex machina.
     
  3. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Not just to me, to several people here.

    Have you read the theories?
     
  4. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Yep, and I think people are desperate to add meaning that isn't there.

    Even if it was intended to have meaning, it's still a deus ex machina, just a deus ex machina dressed up with some symbolism.
     
  5. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    How is it a deus ex machina? If anything, it's Chekhov's gun.
     
  6. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Because the dagger wasn't introduced early in the story and it wasn't used near the end.

    Of course I'm counting the whole story arc, Overlords, Altar and Ghosts.

    They had an unsolvable problem and it was suddenly solved by a weapon out of nowhere, or so they thought.

    Either term is fine, but the point is neither is a good thing.

    Most people see Chekhov's Gun and a Deus Ex Machina as horrible writing.
     
  7. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Well, Filoni has said the arc is to be interpreted metaphorically, and that it's full of symbolism. So, to say that there's no meaning to be found, is simply ignoring this trilogy for what it is.

    And to many of us it's pretty evident... everything in this story symbolizes something... the landscape, the characters' behaviour, the events, they all echo events and concepts from throughout the saga.

    The thing is, this is not just some average clone wars episode, this is full of meaning. Star Wars often references itself (a scene from RotS visually closely resembling a scene from RotJ, etc.), only this time it's done very differently. The similarities are not so much visual, but they're symbolized by all kinds of things. And if you recognize these symbols, the story makes much more sense.

    If it's just not your cup of tea, and you'd rather just see something like Landing at Point Rain, I can understand that. But there are some of us who love these kind of stories.

    In general, you could say that deeper meanings and hidden layers of meaning are what separates literature from 'normal' fiction and art-house from 'mainstream' movies.

    For example, do you think the Dagobah Cave scene in TESB means something? Or is it just there for spookiness?
     
  8. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    I'll have to see how it ends, but so far to me there isn't any meaning, it's all just symbolism for the sake of symbolism.

    It just seems like they're saying "Hey, remember this? Where have you seen this before, huh?"

    I have not enjoyed it.

    I thought the cave scene in ESB had much greater importance to Luke's development and the plot.
     
  9. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Chekhov's gun is a rule for good writing and is the complete opposite of a deus ex machina.

    Anyway, there was no "unsolvable problem", AFAICT. The Son was engaged in a conflict with the Father, and the Daughter was attempting to intervene. If it was just a matter of the Son needing to kill the Daughter accidentally, they could have just had her get some major Force lightning that was directed at the Father--no need for cosmic phallic symbols then. So, plot-wise, the dagger was superfluous.

    But that's not what was needed to be said symbolically. Obi-Wan, Anakin and Ahsoka needed to have a hand in the Daughter's death, acting with good intentions but ultimately giving the Son all he needed to secure his reign. They wield an instrument they don't fully understand, and it brings about a period of darkness.

    Joseph Campbell famously said "Myths are public dreams; dreams are private myths". Dreams are notorious for lacking an internal logic--if you remove a degree of internal logic from fiction, as in the case of myths, terms like "deux ex machina" lose all meaning. It's like complaining that the dream you had last night about being robbed had a really weak climax, because suddenly you had a gun that wasn't there earlier on, allowing you to defeat the robbers.
     
  10. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    Ah, I think that's very telling. You're saying, I take it, that you see "dream sequences" or moments of surrealism to have a value proportional to their significance to the plot. IOW, in your eyes they need to serve a literal function first and foremost.

    OTOH, I see them as being valuable if they are thematically significant. It doesn't matter to me if the Mortis arc impacts the characters in a long-term way--it's elucidated the thematic core of SW indirectly through symbolic language, and that's of great value, from my POV.
     
  11. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 3, 2010
    LOL many TCW-episodes tend to lack internal logic like dreams- for example Obi-Wan had his lightsaber there in Gungan General even though before there were only Dooku's and Anakin's sabers:p
     
  12. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I hate to break it to you however the entire Star Wars mythos is a metaphor, and as such everything we have been shown in this saga has been, in some way, metaphorical and symbolic. Star Wars is the modern worlds prominent mythology, and as Joseph Campbell said, ?Myths are a metaphor for the experience of life?. Everything in the films and series are presented to us in such a way that we, as the viewers, are meant to find the meaning which isn?t actually literally ?told to us?. The only difference with this Mortis arc is that it is a metaphor within the metaphor which is the Star Wars Saga... which makes more prominent metaphors necessary. So these aren?t just things we are finding because we want something to find... it is very clear that if you look beyond the stereographic levels that you will find the ?hidden meaning?.

    But then again, judging by your comments, you seem to give the impression that Star Wars, to you, is more based on the action and entertainment. That is fine, however ultimately Star Wars is intended to be much, much more.
     
  13. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 3, 2010
    i think action and entertainment are surely lacking from 3rd season- my second favourite thing after deeper meaning:p
     
  14. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 3, 2010
    Not dp- i cannot edit that previous one anymore...

    I think it would've been better if Son and Daughter would've been named Bogan and Ashla and it would've been confirmed these beings are Whills- i was surprised they didn't reuse those names for these guys
     
  15. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 6, 2007
    Except this is not a dream, its a work of fiction with a dagger that appeared from no where to serve the plot.

    Nobody is going to critique a dream, by the same extent no one is going to look at a TV show that they are having trouble making sense of and say "If it was a dream it would be Ok".
     
  16. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 3, 2010
    Well Artoo-Dion meant that these episodes are different since they supposedly are bit dreamlike- Filoni confirms that theory when saying these episodes are just like the cave of Dagobah so they are not any less dreamlike than that Vader on Dagobah- he appeared from nowhere and probably disappeared similarly.....
     
  17. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 6, 2007
    Vader was still part of the plot involving the cave. I suspect if Luke couldn't have defeated Vader in the cave and Yoda then told him "Go get the dagger you must, only with it can you kill Vader" to scene would have lost its signicance.
     
  18. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 6, 2005
    :oops:
     
  19. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 6, 2007
    It's about story telling. In this case that one simple scene in the cave showing Luke what he could become with no strings attached.

    This episode could have tried to have that same significance without inserting a magical dagger into the plot for no reason.
     
  20. Gry Sarth

    Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 1999
    And again I say: not quite true. Dreams don't send you distress calls with built-in codes.
     
  21. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    The point of the Dagobah cave is also that Luke finds only conflict when he takes his weapons with him. It's about fear leading to conflict. If he doesn't control his fear, he might end up like Vader, as in: consumed by the dark side.

    It works on several levels, it's really a layered metaphor.
     
  22. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 3, 2010
    Are you sure?[face_laugh] dreams don't tend to attack you with lightsabers when you are awake so it was just as dreamlike as that Vader....

    and @Robimus i don't get you now..... dagger and that Vader had nothing to do with each other....
     
  23. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    Are we still talking about the dagger?
     
  24. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Yeah...

    we managed to come up with several layered theories for the sword/dagger, but some people think we're looking for a meaning where there is none.

    Suit yourself, I say. [face_peace]
     
  25. Gry Sarth

    Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 1999
    Luke was "dreaming" during that duel, so you can't really say he was awake. If Vader had chopped his hand in the cave and Luke came out with a stump, then it would be something similar to Mortis.