Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 317: Ghosts of Mortis Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Garth Maul, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    If you think Mortis conclusively proved Anakin is the Chosen One you are gravely mistaken. We know he is from interviews with George, but Mortis does nothing to confirm or deny the accuracy of the prophecy itself or Anakin as its implementer. All we find out is one guy's interpretation of it, that's it. And, on top of that, we do find out conclusively that that one interpretation the arc was based on was false (since obviously Anakin didn't stay on Mortis). It seems to me that the belief that this arc conclusively proved anything about the Chosen One prophecy may be merely the result of people who need an excuse to whine because they refused to put enough thought into the arc to gain anything from it.

    Your second point is exactly right, which is why your first is irrelevant.
  2. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Did i say "all hope and faith" no of course not- but i'm disappointed if this was the meaning of the saga it was damn poor metaphor.... what does it tells about my intellect that i'm stupid? Oh I'm sorry about being stupid and not understanding greatness of Mortis[face_plain]

    I said lowered a bit if we have an arc that supposedly reveals it all without revealing nothing it makes me to think that perhaps saga was not as thought through either as i thought before...
  3. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Whoa, personal gibes are not an acceptable way to go about disputes.

    Son, I am VERY disappoint.[face_shame_on_you]
  4. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    I'll say it again.

    The point of Mortis is not that it is a parallel/metaphor.

    That's just a tool for interpreting its hidden meanings.

    If you recognize the parallels to the saga, and go with the idea that every important story element of Mortis must be a parallel, you'll learn some new things about the saga.

    Such as, for example: The (will of the) Force created Anakin. (And I think people who do not want to accept this just don't want to let go of the scenario that Sidious possibly created Anakin.)

    Secrets revealed!

    *runs*
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Or Plagueis. Because Lucas confirmed neither possibility and said that both were possible.

    They're not questioning the role of the Chosen One, they're questioning whether Anakin will fulfill that role. The whole scene originates from their doubts concerning Anakin's behavior. To be mistaken in believing Anakin to be the Chosen One could be a way of "misreading" the prophecy. The DVD's chapter title for this scene is "Not the Chosen One?" ( as opposed to "Not the Role of the Chosen One?" )

    Don't you think it's unlikely that a Jedi prophecy foretold the destruction of the Jedi order, and that the Jedi trained an initiate in the hopes that he would one day fulfill this prophecy? And the point was that the Jedi Order was not destroyed. At no point were there no Jedi, including the point at which balance was restored. So destroying the Jedi wasn't a prerequisite for anything.

    Then I would suggest watching the films.
  6. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Yeah, or Plagueis.

    Anyway, I believe Mortis finally gave us the answer. It wasn't the Sith.
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Mortis didn't disprove the theory of creation by the Sith.
  8. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    That's your opinion. It obviously isn't mine. :p
  9. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
  10. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Once again, there is a "New Order" founded by Luke who was fundamentally different than the Jedi like Obi-Wan and Yoda from the "Old Order." All "Old Order" Jedi are dead by the end of ROTJ, as are the Sith. We don't know what the prophecy says. All we know is that the prophecy is in regards to bringing balance to the Force. We don't know if it says in big bold letters: Chosen One annihilates Sith Order! Prophecies in real world religions are incorrectly applied all the time.

    The Jedi were all about discouraging attachment. Something Luke NEVER gave up over the course of the films. Yoda warns him about going off to save his friends, he does it anyway. Yoda says it is unfortunate that Vader told Luke that he is his Father, and Obi-Wan had the "point of view" that Anakin was dead, so as to prevent attachment, allowing Luke a clear mind when fighting (and killing) Vader. Instead, Luke WAS attached and refused to give up on Vader and it WAS that attachment that allowed Luke to redeem Vader, and it was Vader's attachment to Luke that allowed him to overcome his fear and guilt and kill Palpatine. Yoda and Obi-Wan hold that attachment ---> Dark Side ---> bad... Period. But that whole Throne Room scene showed attachment can be good, IF someone can overcome the temptation of the Dark Side.

    Again, the older Jedi like Yoda and Obi-Wan had a fundamentally different aim than Luke, and Luke's aim was the right one.

    The "destruction" of the Jedi Order doesn't mean that ALL JEDI MUST DIE. There's no inherent implication that killing must be involved. If somehow Vader and Palpatine were both redeemed, would the Sith Order not be destroyed, even though neither died? If the Jedi are incorrect in their perception of things and promote or skew the balance themselves, simply reforming or changing that view would be enough. And unless I'm supposed to be under the impression that Luke was in the wrong in his actions when it came to saving Han and Leia, and redeeming Anakin, then I think a post-ROTJ reformation is implied.

    In which it is only shown as bad when looking through the polarized view of the Sith, which the Mortis Trilogy supports. And in regards to the Mortis trilogy, we learn that the Dark Side is essential, just as is the Light Side, but BOTH are bad when at the exclusion of the other.
  11. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    This.
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yet it's still the Jedi Order, with the same fundamental rejection of the use of the dark side. The script of ROTJ chooses to emphasize Luke's commonality and identification with the "old" order rather than difference: I am a Jedi, like my father before me. When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be. Luke isn't the "last" of a "new" order; he's the last of the old order.

    If ROTS is not clear enough, we know from Lucas that the destruction of the Sith order fulfilled the prophecy.

    Due to their lack of omniscience, they may have doubted the likelihood that Anakin could be successfully redeemed. But they said that Luke must face and confront him. That in itself was neither wrong nor fundamentally different from Luke's aim.

    That is a false comparison. If Vader and Palpatine were somehow redeemed, there would no longer be any Sith. However, what you're calling the "destruction" of the Jedi order just means a new generation of Jedi.

    The threat to the balance is not the Jedi. They do not themselves skew the balance - unless this is meant in the sense that they have made mistakes and for whatever reason are not proficient enough to hold back the encroaching darkness to an optimal degree.

    Arguably, we already knew that from the PT. You can't have balance between the light and dark sides of the Force if there is no dark side.
  13. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    The Jedi are largely a symbol by that point. Luke didn't stay on Dagobah to complete his training and instead went off due to attachment issues, something the Jedi forbid. Then when he comes back Yoda is dying and confirms that Vader is Luke's father which leads to another attachment issue that shifts Luke's focus from wanting to kill Vader to wanting to save him. Had he continued on the path of trying to kill him, he very well could have fallen to the Dark Side (as he almost did in ROTJ when he lashed out and tried to kill him). The Jedi set him in the right direction, and they were symbols of hope, but Luke had to go his own way.


    The Jedi (fully trained Jedi with dogmatic view) are already gone by that point.


    The difference between trying to kill Vader and trying to save him is fundamentally different. The idea of killing him and being free of attachment is the same kind of advocation for "doing one's duty" that Yoda and Obi-Wan had been advocating, and that ultimately would have lead to the Emperor maintaining power.

    Sith and Jedi are just four letter words. If at the end of ROTJ Luke wanted to found a new Sith Order based on peace, justice, restraint, pacifism, etc. I don't think the will of the Force would be to destroy it simply given the name.
  14. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    I'm beginning to suspect this thread is acting like a miniature black hole, sucking in any would-be posters and preventing any attempts to discuss other topics escaping its black, soulless maw.
  15. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Well, then let me just say that I'm giving up. I have a different view than some, but I don't want all my time spent on these forums to consist of arguing about the same topic, and especially since it's branching out into OT discussion.

    So, whatever anybody else wants to talk about in regards to the episode, have at it.
  16. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Oh don't be like that. Please, continue. I still need to confirm my suspicions ;)
  17. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
  18. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Me too!
  19. Darth_Gamek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2009
    star 6
    Me three! [face_dancing] [face_dancing] [face_dancing]
  20. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I hate it, they're the worst episodes in the history of the show.

    COMBO BREAKER
  21. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Worse than Corruption? WOW you REALLY hate them.....:p Ghosts is crappiest ep ever it ruined this arc totally-

    watched Overlords again- it was not at all as bad as this last part -if alone i would have learned to like it- seeing seasons changing and all that was kinda fun and visions-even though adult-Ahsoka's montrals were overkill -

    she had larger head than Shaak Ti and Ki-Adi together- i think adult togrutas have neck problems and back problems since they seem to have humanlike body-structure and huge head- even though montrals are hollow her head must be pretty heavy-it's said cereans suffer such problems "her potential" must've been 30 or so hard to believe her montrals and lekkus would grow such fast considering they won't grow much between age of 5-15.... .... something more practical thinking about Mortis for a while.....

    One more complaint about this arc- trinity lost all their majestetic mysticism in later episodes- Daughter was stupid, Son was crybaby and Father old fool- in this they were frightening, odd and mysterious later episodes ruined them pretty well humanizing them so much......
  22. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    [face_laugh] But you really think Overlords is worse than Evil Plans or Bombad Jedi?
  23. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    ^
  24. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    I always think Togrutas in particular must need MASSIVE neck muscles to hold that kind of weight on their heads. Swash, even though montrals are hollow they'd still weigh quite a bit if they're made of bone at that size. Add to that of course the three lekku, of which the rear one is now a lot thicker and bulgy unlike the front 2. If those are made of flesh ie. tissue, fat, or muscle seeing as they can twitch, then that's some seriously heavy stuff they're having to drag around. Actually same goes for any SW alien with head protrusions (which is a lot).

    But of course, making them all having really thick necks would interfere with the sex appeal, so their proportions are kept as humanlike as possible.
  25. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    In fact i think I do- while Overlords is the best of Mortis-arc it's still hardly as good as Bombad or Evil Plans- neither are excellent eps- maybe Overlords is about as 'good' as Evil Plans- Bombad being bit better with all it's flaws it's much better than this stuff....