main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 317: Ghosts of Mortis Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by Garth Maul, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Say that to Filoni.... anyway only signal is that real for now.... so Mortis may still be dream and signal is sent by sentient monolith built by whills or rakata:p ....
     
  2. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2009
    The line between dream and fiction isn't as clear-cut as you're suggesting. Swashbucklingjedi got it right: I'm drawing a distinction between regular fiction and works of pure myth. And, like I said, myths are public dreams--IOW, they obey the same kind of "logic" as dreams. Myths tends towards the surreal by their very nature.

    Now, I'm not saying Mortis is literally a dream, but it is dream-like. Ships disappear or get repaired spontaneously; people transform into animal avatars; plants die at night and then regenerate the next morning; visions of the past, present and future appear and disappear. Does this sound like the sort of narrative where continuity and internal logic are relevant components?

    For a completely different take on the same style, take a look at David Lynch's Mulholland Dr. During the film's third act, a blue box appears out of nowhere, coincidentally matching a blue key that appeared earlier in the film. Again, is this a deus ex machina? No, because the film follows "dream logic", not real logic.

    This is the nature of surrealist art. Complaining that surrealist fiction doesn't follow the ordinary rules is like complaining that Saving Private Ryan just wasn't funny enough.
     
  3. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2002
    This arc better close out with many of the questions that rose up in the last two episodes answered, or it'll end up being the worse story-arc.
     
  4. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2009
    My bet is that you'll be disappointed.
     
  5. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2002
    One will only look back at this thing and wonder what could have been. It's foolish to think we wanted this and a waste of time to throw us something that only confuses a concept that was laid out before with simplicity. When you dig a hole this deep, there is nothing you can ever do to re-fill it. GL has lost his touch, plain and simple.
     
  6. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Funny, no one ever said that about the Dagobah cave.
     
  7. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2002
    What makes you think it's anything like the cave? This could be all real, instead of a drawn out dream like many of you think it is. The cave sequence was only a minute, so therefore this is far more than a dream.
     
  8. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Filoni's comments.
     
  9. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2002
    Well, he's exaggerating. This feels nothing like that; not even close to it.
     
  10. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2005
    Exactly
     
  11. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Surely that's a matter of opinion?
     
  12. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Exactly! A few pages back I said that watching the Mortis trilogy several times is like watching Mulholland Drive 5 times in a row, and having a new theory every time you finish it, each of them equally valid.

    The best example of dream logic in 'Altar of Mortis' is when Obi-Wan is wondering where to find the father. Suddenly there is this rumble behind him and a shifting light, and all of a sudden there is the tower, as if the landscape just shifted, or even as if the Force of Mortis responded to his thoughts.

    Obi-Wan staying behind and not going with Anakin when he went after Ahsoka seems out of character in a regular adventure, but here it really served to symbolize their basic attitudes more than anything;

    Anakin, in his attachment to Ahsoka, rushes off without so much of a thought, even though it's perfectly clear the Son took her to lure him in. Obi-Wan, as always cool and well balanced, takes the time to think. It's in Obi-Wan's nature to seek for guidance, but Anakin typically thinks no one will be able to help him, just like in RotS when he assumed Obi-Wan wouldn't be able to help him and Padme.

    This is not a normal adventure. It has a unique, inner logic. It's really a dream-like picture of many key moments and concepts in the saga, and it looks like it will reach some sort of climax in the next part. If you've watched some surrealistic film or art-house stuff, you don't need Dave to tell you that the word metaphor is printed all over this arc.

    The reason I think it is brilliantly done, is because you can come up with at least four things the sword symbolizes and all four explanations are equally valid and meaningful. Please don't get me wrong, I absolutely don't want this to come off as condescending; but I can see how none of this makes sense if you're not all that familiar with the genre. Lucas really did something else with this story, and to me it really looks like he knew exactly what he wanted.

    (The only thing that still eludes me is why Son would want to leave the place. But other than that, so far it's a near perfect story.)

    The Star Wars movies themselves are at the basic level just some romantic adventure straight out of a pulp novel, but it's also much more than that. It's like a modern day Iliad and Odyssey. It is truly the biggest modern day myth. There are several layers of depth and themes in Star Wars, and even if we can't consciously point them all out, we all get the message because all these motives ring true with our subconscious. This is why kids can even understand what Return of the Jedi means. They might not be able to put it into words, but in their hearts, they know.

    This trilogy takes the symbolism of Star Wars to the next level, and the fact that they're pulling it off disguised as 22 minute mini-adventures for a young audience, is absolutely praise-worthy. (Here's hoping the 3rd part won't ruin it - fingers crossed)

    Even people in Lit are thinking Lucas has totally lost it and that Filoni doesn't even know how to explain what the frack they're doing. And I think it's such a shame. It's really a matter of watching it several times and spending time thinking about it, and eventually it will click. It's like a record that doesn't seem all that great at first listening, but the more and more you spin it, the more you'll start to get into it, and before you know it, it'll be one of your favourite records. To me, this sort of thing has a more lasting appeal than the more straightforward adventures, because it will keep me wondering about d
     
  13. Gry Sarth

    Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 1999
    The thing about the Dagobah cave comment, is that we must remember that it was used when Dave was explaining to the writer how to approach this episode. "It's like the Dagobah cave" doesn't necessarily mean it's just a metaphorical vision, like the cave. I think what he was trying to convey is that this is a place where the normal rules don't apply, where reality is "bent". In the cave you can meet a doppleganger of Vader, and when you kill him your face appears inside the mask, in Mortis people can shapeshift into gargoyles and house-elfs.

    Don't read too much into that comment. At the end of the day, Father still sent a signal out into the galaxy.
     
  14. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110205054603/starwars/images/8/86/Griffin-AOM.jpg]

    When the Daughter swept down (in griffin form) to fight the Son, did anyone else yell out "Gryffindor!" ?

    It was the only amusement provided by "Altar of Mortis", at that point I was already beaten down and desperate for entertainment.
     
    Sitara likes this.
  15. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    To be honest, I'm really not all that concerned with the question whether it really takes place or not. Even if the place is 'real', it's still a vision for Anakin, a metaphorical message, nothing changes that. No matter which way you spin it, it's an experience he should contemplate upon in order to learn something.

    I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't change the message.
     
  16. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    The blue box from Mulholland Drive isn't a bad comparison, except despite all your good work, I haven't found a completely convincing metaphor for the sword.....although most of my problems were with its execution.

    But this isn't the Altar thread.[face_peace]
     
  17. Darth_Rattimus

    Darth_Rattimus Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 10, 2011
    So Since the daughter has died, does that mean the Light Side Can never Stay in Control of the Universe again, I.e the Legacy Comic where the Sith have destroyed the Jedi....again....Now that i think of it since this trilogy (supposing it's not a "dream" that relates to Anakins sub-conscious) explains why the Sith rise to power in ROTS, then what about the other two times the sith wipe out the Jedi (1st back in KOTOR 2, and 2nd in Legacy Comics) how did that come about. Darn Continuity
     
  18. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Honestly i'm not excited at all about this Ghosts- episode... feels like i would've seen it already... perhaps it will surprise me but i'm not expecting much- previews already gave me picture of general idea in that episode.... and we won't talk about them here... but they can be mentioned right.... don't kick me out because i mentioned word preview[face_praying] ..... [face_laugh]

    I love visions in this arc...but they and foreshadowing of fate plus exploring the nature of the Force are pretty much only thing worth of my attention in these episodes (and Admiral Tennant of course) this family and all... this is simply not Star Wars enough to be entertaining to watch as SW and not fantasy enough to be entertaining to watch as fantasy like well.... LOTR which is pretty much only 'medieval fantasy' I really like .......
    i will probably end up giving "well-balanced 5" to this part as well if it won't drop some surprisebomb which is very very improbable since these Lucasfilm-guys love spoilers......

    At least we get rid of that Griffinlady so i need to tolerate only that Gargoyleguy anymore:p .... i hope we won't see darksidedobby again i hated that form.... simply bad- guy like that could be in Cantina- in SW those odd beings are aliens not fantasycreatures it just goes that way and it felt out of place when it was not alien but fantasyelf[face_tired]

    what comes to Cave-comparison i get Dave's meaning but feeling of this arc lost it's mysticism when they made more than 1 episode on Mortis- one episode (maybe some 2 ep-special) with Mortis would've been enough- it would start with that mystic monolith absorbing the ship then they wake up to wondering about oddity of the place then this fantasypart of the story and then back to normal universe and they would be unsure if it was only odd dream or not
    Dagobahcave was delicious scene when it was so short- "WTF Vader cannot be there" it ended quickly making it feel spooky "What that was?" but long scenes on Mortis made me lose this feeling of something odd happening and it felt like "normal day on Mortis"

    maybe movie of this arc would've been good or something but now they wasted 3 episodes of season3 to this.... same season3 they already destroyed with terrible Corruption-duology and pointless Evil Plans..... and when we will hear more about Savage's lost brother? This season has it's moments but as complete season this is absolutely ****!

    NO this trilogy symbolises the saga- death of daughter is not happening of the real universe but symbol of what happens in ROTS- soon Son will probably die symbolising ROTJ

    legacy comics or kotor are not part of George's continuity so looking for sense in this overall stuff is useless for now- there just is none- i couldn't care less about Legacy that never happened to me it just couldn't[face_talk_hand] ....
    Sith died in Rotj and that's it after that dark siders never gained such power so there is no reason to explain that era- all Krayts and others can go to chaos if you ask me they ruin the EU IMO[face_plain] .....

    official continuity is now beaten up so... too bad for you who care about it I don't... don't think about it too much just forget these episodes if they cause probs in your mind since c-canon makes no sense right now there will be retcons which will answer your questions but those are not "truth" for George so he can mess up things again if he wants.... either you forget this arc- forget old continuity or come up with your own continuity.... there is no official continuity
     
  19. Gundark31

    Gundark31 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2010
    A better comparison than Mullholand Drive would be Star Trek V The Final Frontier, the plot of these episodes is similar to that movie.As someone quoted Shatner in a previous thread "What does God need with a Starship?".If the son is a god or metaphor or whatever why does he need a spaceship to escape the planet?

    Filoni's comments about this episode strike me as damage control, something he seems to be doing a lot with Lucas's odd ideas, such as Filoni getting them to use Savage Opress instead of Maul and his various efforts to not let Lucas completely destroy the EU.

    I do wonder if the ideas for these episodes came from stuff Lucas had thought up for the Willow/Shadow War series that he never got to use, the ideas in theses episodes seem better suited to that franchise and Lucas loves to reuse old ideas or it could just be that he saw Star Trek V.
     
  20. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    I don't quite agree with that conclusion- metaphors don't have to make sense but Anakin had to take them seriously- Son will probably never get the shuttle he will never get out of Mortis so we cannot know was he able to get out or is he just metaphor inevitably trapped inside this 'dream'- you can have a dream where is people who say "i want to get out of this dream" Of course it is impossible because those beings are not real just part of the dream- only dreamer can get out really others are inside him -they cannot get out they doesn't really even want since they have no soul no own desires they are illusions of the dreamer but they can still say so.... they can still even 'try to get out' in that dream if you know my meaning...[face_skull]

    ..... i think that these beings are not just metaphors but also metaphors- once real beings disappeared from temporal universe and their destiny is to never get out anymore- Mortis is place that cannot be found- it is place that finds you.... if it wants..... it doesn't really exists and yet it somehow does it is somewhere there but when looking for it you won't find it- Rex and his fleet went exact same coordinates but they were unable to see the shuttle and Mortis... whether or not this was caused by some error or was it really so that Monolith is not in this universe but somehow absorbed shuttle to parallel one even before they saw it- remains questionable.....
     
  21. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Well, yeah. At the end of the day, the Dagobah cave is still strong with the dark side of the Force.
     
  22. quigonvodka

    quigonvodka Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2011
    The family has three members: Father, Son, Daughter.

    Where is mother?

    MOTHER Talzin.

    Like the family, she has the distinct voice effect.

    She also created a mythical metal weapon for Savage Oppress similar to the weapon at the altar.

    She spoke of a destiny for Savage and to follow the talisman she gave him. I think these are all linked together.
     
  23. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Yeah, it doesn't seem like coincidence. There was also the same tap-to-the-forehead-magic being involved.
     
  24. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    More i think about it more it feels like funny coincidence i don't think these guys have any connection... well except that they are forceusers in TCW...with spooky voice.... Talzin has name also.... they are not part of the same family..... i hope....[face_worried]
     
  25. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    We don't know for sure that the Jedi actually heard the distress call or not.


    As far as Talzin goes, I can see this arc ending on some kind of cliffhanger where Mortis is dealt with, and then we return to Dathomir and have Talzin freaking out about what happened.