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TCW Episode The Clone Wars: Episode 317: Ghosts of Mortis Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Garth Maul, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Why? People noted that they didn?t understand the concept ? simply trying to clarify. I realise that most of the people here know what balance is etc, especially following the Mortis arc, however likewise some people made evident they didn?t understand. I don?t see how clarifying for someone is necessarily a bad thing? Is it stating the obvious? Yeah. But not everyone gets the obvious.

    Just saying ? then again I have been researching this stuff recently so perhaps I am overstating points.

    Well, yeah, I agree it could have been clarified. It was just a plot devise in my opinion. I think clearly stating what the dagger?s origins or purpose was would be eliminating the metaphor they intended. But that?s just me.

    One thing they should have clarified more clearly is what constitutes the ?dark side? (since this is the primary factor is regards to the cosmology of the Force ? i.e. is the Dark Side essential, etc). The Son is symbolic of the Dark Side and represents its natural place in the universal system (thus it is essential). However it is then said that he is ?falling to the Dark Side? meaning that either the concept of the ?dark side? is different from what the Son initially was (just ?Darkness? of the Force I guess) or that ?falling to the Dark Side? corrupts something (creating vanity, etc). I?m going to assume the ?Dark Side? is an essential part of nature and that only when a being is fully consumed by it does it create evils, etc. Apart from this ?falling to the Dark Side?, balance was essentially clarified.
  2. Humble_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Just like the discovery of the clone army in AotC was a little, shall we say... too incidental?

    Just like the discovery of little Ani in TPM was a little, shall we say... too incidental?

    Because these are the things that the sword can be a metaphor for.
  3. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Eh -- I think that's pushing it. This wasn't like a bunch of paths all coming together in the Force. This was the Daughter being an idiot. She basically did the equivalent of putting a loaded gun on a table in the middle of room of people already beating the hell out of each other.

    Besides, the discovery of the Clone Army was planned by Palpatine, since he was at the end of his term as Chancellor and needed to get the ball rolling.
  4. vong333 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    See the real question is what are they going to do with this? Taylor said something about Mortis type stories, did he mean more of the son, father, and daughter? Or just the theme oriented type stuff? Cause as it stands, withint the frame of things, these three can do some amazing things with the force.
  5. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 5
    The problem with the Mortis Arc is that nobody really knows what to take it as. Is it a Force dream? Did it really happen? If it did then, did it happen in our time and dimension, or did they go back in time or traveled to an alternate universe? None of it is made clear, which is the reason why it failed for some of us.
  6. Darth_Gamek Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2009
    star 6
    I looked back at my episode ratings for this arc, and I went "Wow, was I REALLY that critical back then?"

    10/10's all around. :D
  7. sacharias Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2011
    star 2
    That, and the fact that it's been completely ignored by the characters themselves ever since. Bizarre phenomena like Mortis isn't normal in the GFFA, not even for Jedi. They should have (would have) headed straight for the Temple and dug into the Archives until they got to the bottom of this. The Council would have to be informed. And Anakin should have been locked up until somebody figured out what the kriff was going on with him. The way Ahsoka, Anakin and Obi-Wan look at each other like, "Huh?" and then go about their business, is really cheap, IMHO.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It's an imbalance in Force users. It's an imbalance in "Jedi/Sith head count". It's not an imbalance of the Force.

    If you treat the term "balance of the Force" as if it means "Jedi/Sith head count", it makes no sense in the context of the film which introduced the term, and that's where this problem with balance usually starts.

    And that's not Lucas doing a bad job. That's a chunk of the audience replacing what the film said with something different and not realizing or caring that the substitution doesn't make sense.

    It is, but it's called the "good side".
  9. Coric Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2011
    star 4
    x_X This is still going?!
  10. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    By headcount logic, Vader brought balance to the force before ANH. Jedi Yoda and Kenobi vs Sith Vader and Palpatine. Kenobi unbalanced the force by starting to teach Luke, and Vader restored balance by killing Kenobi.
    By killing Palpatine and dieing himself, Vader unbalances the Force, because the only force users left are Luke and all the untrained people like Leia.
    The problem is "Bring Balance to the Force" is a throw-away line that is never explained, or even mentioned again (as far as I know) after TPM, and doesn't really make sense. Of course, that the whole "Prophecy" makes no sense on its own and needs to be explained is yet another weak point of TPM in the first place.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That's the problem with so-called "headcount logic": it's contradicted by the fact that we know balance is restored in ROTJ and we are specifically told it is not achieved in ROTS. It also does not work with TPM. If an assumption is disproved by the evidence, the assumption should be thrown out. It should not be at all surprising that "headcount logic" leads to problems. The balance of the Force is not the same thing as a balance of Force users, since Force users are not the Force. One cannot legitimately be substituted for the other. The films never discuss a balance of Force users. This also is not strange, because neither the Jedi nor the Sith desire such a thing to occur.

    It's mentioned in AOTC and ROTS as well ( in addition to EU and TCW ).

    It only fails to make sense under invalid rewrites such as "Jedi/Sith head count" for which Lucas is not responsible.
  12. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    What apocryphal way to interpret the saga[face_shame_on_you] GL said himself that "balance" doesn't mean sith/jedi headcount- besides headcount is not necessarily 2 and 2 in ROTS- we only see Yoda and Obi-Wan but there is other survivors in EU- who knows if even Ahsoka is still somewhere.

    And "balance" is, not only mentioned many times in all PT-movies, but actually shout out loud in ROTS- so that much about that sentence- watch AOTC and ROTS sometime and you'll notice it;)

    It was said you would bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness! and many other mentions of it...

    I don't think it needs explanation- Sith cause imbalance and destroying them removes it- simple- but way how they cause it and when exactly Force started to lose it's balance is not told and Mortis didn't add much to anything related to those questions. It only explained stuff we already knew and confirmed many fantheories about the very nature of the Force... and left far too much room for speculation to be "explaining" anything- it only added problems in fact but it's impact shouldn't be overestimated...

    SW handles morality stuff that tends to be ambiguous by it's very nature- I think fiction shouldn't handle it too much anyway and leave room for interpretetion that viewers would think about these things also out of OOU-context....

    I'm just not sure if I want GL to be my morality teacher... :p
  13. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    So, what is the prophesy? EXACTLY. WORD FOR WORD. We don't know.
    Why not? Because then Lucas would have to know. And he hasn't (as far as I know) made it up yet.

    It makes the whole balance thing irrelevant if we don't have the details.
    So, yes, it is a throw-away line.

    (sorry, I only watched AotC and RotS twice--the second time to confirm that it really was that bad)
  14. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That's ridiculous. We know everything we need to know about the prophecy from what is given in the films. There's a little more in the TPM novel but that also follows logically from what is in the films.
  15. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 5
    That's why I said there should be an arc that involves the Jedi Council conferring with Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka which explains everything that's happened, starting from two thousand years ago down to the present, and use the Mortis arc discussion as the setup point. And I mean everything. The Sith Dynasty that ruled a thousand years ago. The balance of the Force. The chosen one. The Sith's rule of two. Darth Sidious and Darth Maul. Sifo-Dyas and the clone army. The Jedi Order and their diminished power in the Force. Count Dooku. The corruption in the Senate. Chancelor Palpatine. And whatever else that needs explaining. At least this way it'll clarify the events that led up to and that occurred during the movies.

    I thought this would make for an interesting arc, but most people scoffed at the idea. I think it would help the movies and the series.
  16. Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 5
    No, that is why it is awesome. :D
  17. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    No, it isn't, because NO, we don't.
    What we know:
    there is a prophecy
    It was made some time ago
    There is to be a chosen one
    Chosen one will somehow bring balance to the Force.

    What we don't know:
    Who made this prophecy
    How reliable are prophecies? After all, the Emperor is said to have relied on Force Farseeing (OK, that was EU) and totally missed Vader throwing him down the shaft. If the emperor had all that power, how could he have missed that? If prophecies work, why not the prophecy that a Sith Lord would use political trickery to destroy the Republic? That would have been a lot more useful...
    What does "Bringing Balance to the Force" mean? Is this mystic energy field really out of balance? How did it get that way? When? Where? Why? How? Who?
    And I'm sure there is a ton of other stuff I'd thought up but lost track of while typing this. And probably more that I missed entirely.

    But the prophecy is just one of many minor problems with the prequels--so many other more major points bother me much more. Once again, I refer anyone over 18 to look up RedLetterMedia's reviews on YouTube.

    But that leads us way away from this particular episode/trilogy, and the insensible, incoherent, and inconsistent mess that it is.
  18. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Prophecies tend to be unreliable because "Always in motion is the future"- only things that are certain are reliable prophecies- Anakin was meant to bring the Force back in the balance- he probably had many ways and opportunities to do this- he chose the hard way.... Too much explanation ruins this story that is supposed to be mystic part of SW anyway- Force is out of the balance because of evil deeds sith are doing- they are source of corruption and rising evil in the galaxy- Force has two sides- light and dark but these dark siders by existing cause imbalance- no need to know how exactly (some midichlorian thing anyway)

    When imbalance started is not told- it may be existing all the time in the saga or then it is caused by destruction of the jedi.... probably it already exists before because in AOTC Yoda says that dark side clouds his visions of future.

    Why? Existence of evil is ancient mystery that connects SW with moral things in real universe and need not and should not to be "explained" too much in fiction. Who? Palpatine is the Sith Lord and devil of the saga- he causes imbalance by his manipulations and schemes.....

    Easy....
  19. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 5
    Based on what we know, Anakin was to be the destroyer of the Sith, which would bring balance to the Force. But, what the unbalance is and what caused it to happen is not clarified in the films, and so we're forced to assume. Is it the Sith, who use the Force in unnatural ways, such as cheating death and creating life, causing the unbalance. Is it Anakin Skywalker's immaculate conception and incredible power in the Force the reason why the Force isn't balanced? When did this all start? Who prophesized the whole thing knowing that one day this person will be the one to fix everything?
  20. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    In AOTC Mace says "your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance".

    You're leaving a few things out.

    It doesn't really matter. It is said to be a Jedi prophecy. Probably the SW equivalent of Malbeth.

    Prophecies appearing in 1999 that predict things originally depicted in 1983 tend to be reliable.

    If your argument that prophecies are unreliable involves the Emperor's death, you may be missing the big picture.

    Yes. The PT films say that it is.

    The Sith.

    The specifics are not as important as simply knowing that it's a process which began sometime in the past.
  21. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    All over the place.

    The Sith.

    The Sith.

    First base.

    Case closed.

    These questions are answered by the following:

  22. Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 6
    Prophecies, misread they may be...

    Prophecies are usually lost in the mists of time, with fragments remaining and easy to twist around to fit one's perceptions. Look at Nostradamus's predictions, for one example.

    Another way to look at it: prophecies are like some of Yoda's words, convoluted and not straight forward.

    I doubt you could find a prophecy that is not subject to interpretation. It's not a ten-step literal listing of events, but more like an outline of what is to come. The reader/listener fills in the blanks.
  23. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 5
    I'm sorry Arawn_Fenn, but that's not good enough.
  24. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Your own words above say that the answer to your question about Anakin must be no, and they also answer the question about what causes the imbalance.
  25. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    The thing is, whenever Nostradamus was specific with details, he was correct exactly 0% of the time.
    Only through very tortured twisting of interpretation is there any accuracy. "This is what happened, so it must be what he meant, which proves he was right" type logic. Remember, the Rapture is Coming... or is it "The Raptors Are Coming"? And yet Issac Newton proved scientifically that the Rapture couldn't possibly happen until 2150 or so...

    If the saga is about bringing balance to the Force, then yes, an explanation of how it became imbalanced is important and highly relevant, and not something that should just be glossed over.