Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 317: Ghosts of Mortis Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Garth Maul, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    I realise what you were getting at--that's why I provided some sources and argument to back up my interpretation.

    When I asked my question of you, I wasn't challenging you--I was asking a question. I honestly don't believe interpretation of fiction works the same way as the scientific investigation or a rigorous theological argument: speculation and extrapolation are half the fun. It's not like I believe there's a dragon in my garage, so I'm not making claims about the real world; indeed, I make no claim that my interpretation is authoritative. You're the only person making absolute claims like "It's not true" and "Force ghosting and balance are unrelated", so I don't see why the burden should fall on me, given that, again, negatives can be proven for fictional universes.

    I provided my reasoning. I didn't "prove" my case conclusively because when it comes to fiction, IMHO what's explicitly in the text isn't conducive to interesting discussion (nor is contradicting others without further comment, for that matter). Why discuss the obvious?
  2. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4

    Well, that's the problem. Lucas is assuming we all know and understand ancient mythology, as well as old fashioned movie dialogue that he either read, or grew up watching. But the thing is, most of these borrowed, subtle elements don't work in today's filmmaking, at least not in the Prequels. Now, if what you're saying can be seen if you would just stop and think about what is in the films then, why isn't it more obvious after several viewings? I feel like the more I watch the Prequels, the more I see the flaws, and the less I know of the characters and story.
  3. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I agree with Dion that the Jedi were contributing to the imbalance.

    What destroys the Sith and brings balance to the Force is Luke's unconditional love for Vader. In AOTC, Anakin speaks of the fact that the Jedi are to be compassionate, something that Anakin defines as "unconditional love." However, all throughout the prequels, the Jedi DON'T have it. Qui-Gon is probably the closest (though I wouldn't say that there's any real indication that he "loves" Anakin, but he doesn't let fear dictate his actions).

    Yoda warns that fear ---> anger ---> hate ---> suffering, but much of what the Jedi teach is founded in fear. Yoda himself did not want to see Anakin trained due to the fear of the danger he sensed. If Anakin's marriage were ever exposed, he would have been expelled from the Jedi Order, because the Jedi fear such behavior as leading to the dark side. In turn Anakin had to live in fear and shame of his actions.

    Qui-Gon was the one that insisted that Anakin be trained because he held the conviction that it was the will of the Force, and he wasn't going to let the Council's fear get in the way.

    Also, wasn't love said to be the key to "Force Ghosting?"

    I think there is something of a disconnect between the PT and OT in that regard, since Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't appear like they had really learned anything between the two trilogies, yet both "Force Ghosted" upon death. Obi-Wan and Yoda (Yoda in particular) didn't appear any more compassionate. Both had given up on Anakin, were resolved to see him killed, and withheld the truth about Vader's identity so they could use Luke as the instrument to destroy the Sith. Luke was the one that did what he felt was right, rather than act out of fear of a possible future that is "always in motion."

    In the Mortis trilogy, the love and sacrifice of the Daughter and Father are what brings the Force back into balance by allowing the Dark Side (Son) to be overcome, just as love and sacrifice are what destroy Palpatine.

    The Daughter's decision to stand up and face the Son is ultimately what gets the Daughter killed and imbalances things on Mortis, just as the decision of the Jedi to fight in the Clone Wars, is what allows them to be destroyed in Order 66. Luke's refusal to fight is ultimately what saves him from falling.

    As the Son says, light and dark cannot exist without the other. And the Father says that too much of one will change the Galaxy as it is known. There will always be evil temptations, but the Jedi must follow the Light Side to keep those impulses in check. The Sith give into them and follow the Dark Side which causes an imbalance. But I feel the lack of unconditional love in the Jedi Order ultimately contributes to that imbalance too. The Jedi did not seek to offer unconditional love and acceptance of those that make mistakes, but instead ultimately threaten to exile them or reject them from training from the start. Anakin probably wouldn't have fallen if he didn't have to live with insecurity and fear. The Sith Order itself could probably owe its existence to this failure (though Lucas hasn't really depicted the origins of the Sith).

    But ultimately, yes, I feel that balance and "Force Ghosting" are linked. To live with the sort of compassion that Anakin explained and be free of guilt. To follow the light side and the will of the Force without fear.
  4. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Based on the many asinine theories people have posted here on these boards, I can see why Lucas didn't bother explaining this whole balance of the Force thing in the movies. It would have taken him half the film to explain it in detail of what it means for the Force to be unbalanced. And so, like a hack that he now is, he gives us a puzzle with pieces missing from it. I don't know, maybe he wanted someone else to explain his idea since he couldn't do it himself. I get the feeling he painted himself into a corner where he probably didn't know how to get out of it.

    I've read many theories and yet most were disimilar from each other. Well, they can't all be right. Frankly, I'm getting tired of everyone trying to explain it all, when it should have been Lucas who should have done it in the first place.
  5. rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    Even GL's explanation of the balance of the Force would be unsatisfactory to some fans. He infuriated multitudes by simply having Greedo shoot first. Essentially, he's posed the question of the Balance of the Force to fans and had them come up with their own interpretations. Not everyone will interpret a painting the same as the artist's own interpretation; and there should not be any correct or incorrect interpretation.
  6. JediLight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 4
    Excellent post, TaradosGon.
  7. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Well, ultimately it's just the fans coming up with their own rationalizations, because as you said, Lucas hasn't explained everything. But on the other hand, the Jedi in universe, would know the answers to the questions that fans have. So there would be no reason for them to sit around discussing these things. It would just be sooo forced. Some fans were bothered by Mortis because it was so far "out there" and completely different from what fans had accepted. While I agree with the fans that complain that Mortis didn't really introduce anything revolutionary and new about our understanding of the Force, I would think that more future "bizarre" episodes like the Mortis arc would be the only way to introduce such ideas in the future. Otherwise it would be like Han Solo and Luke sitting around talking about how a blaster works. Some of us uber-geeks would find that interesting, but that would be soooo forced, since you either would expect the characters to already know, or not care.
  8. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Good and bad ,morality etc. these things are dangerous stuff and should not be explained too much in fiction- they should be left open for interpretetion- I think that everything that was needed to explain "balance of the Force" was in films but well Mortis added pretty much nothing IMO
    But the original idea is simple- while term "Balance of the Force" was not the best possible in PT- "destroying the evil" just sounds so black and white.... Sith are causing imbalance and destroying the sith brings Force back to the balance... simple....

    We can theorize a lot how imbalance is caused by the sith and how- and what is role of the jedi etc. but you're making this balance-thing too far- ultimately it means killing the bad guy unless GL wants to change it.....
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The ROTS novel, source of "compassion, not greed", also says: It cannot be granted; it can only be taught. This reinforces the fact that ghosting is a learned power and many years' worth of presumably compassionate Jedi failed to achieve it until Qui-Gon was able to teach it to others, as depicted in the films. Thus it is important to resist the temptation to completely divorce "compassion, not greed" from its context of explaining why the Sith don't ghost. Ghosting comes through being a lightsider who learned the ability.

    The second Lucas quote is not necessarily about "individual" balance. It works as a reference to the global balance of the Force - which, again, is the only type of "balance" that the films concern themselves with.

    Linking Force ghosting with light side traits does not necessarily make "individual balance" a prerequisite for ghosting, in the sense that a hypothetical person whose individual equilibrium was weighted toward the light side would presumably still be able to do it if they had been trained in the ability. However, if "individual balance" in this context just reduces to a synonym for "not on the dark side", then this is nothing new.
  10. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    Their going to have to do soemthing else with this Mortis stuff. Didn't they say they were doing a little more on it? Like the mystery of where the son daughter and father came from and stuff like that? They got to clarify this abit.
  11. cwustudent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2011
    star 4
    I'd like to quote you in another thread (hope you don't mind), because I think its a great question. Yes, at some point, Mortis will be addressed further, but in what form, I don't know.
  12. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    Hopefully it will be a whole episode set around the Jedi Council making sense of the Big Three's report on Mortis. It would give the story closure, explain some of the ambiguous events of the trilogy and give the Council some screen time. I honestly can't see GL sending Anakin to another Force-powerful realm, or bringing back the Father, Son or Daughter... As naive as that sounds... [face_worried]
  13. quiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 2
    I think one thing that seems obvious to me is that GL, really doesn't like catering to other peoples idea's or even explaining his own in fine detail just to appease some one else. GL is going to add as little back story to what he does as he thinks he can get away with, thus you see very little in depth explanation of what is going on, the OT give no back ground at all, GL gives some in the PT, only as a way of introducing the young Anakin and why Qui-gon stood up for him, but still doesn't not go into depth.

    It is the common action of fans to thus fill in the blanks, then of course as is to happen when GL puts something out there that doesn't match the fans concept of how it is there will be confusion and uproar. I feel this can explain in many ways the mortis episodes. One GL doesn't really care that he is not explaining in full detail what's happening, nor is he terribly concerned that it might not fit into a neat little package. Think of the problems between the OT and PT concerning Luke, Annakin, Obi etc.

    Personally I really think the whole balance and such came down to fate and choices. I really think Annakin had the chance in PT, to bring balance to the force but made choices that prevented it from happening then, it was later in the OT when given a second chance he saw clearly his mistakes and made up for them. I also feel it is really stretching it to draw any correlation between Luke refusing to fight his father, and the Jedi not refusing to be involved in the clone wars as a sign of their downfall. I also can see some correlation with the choices made by the sister, father in Mortis to the choices Annakin faces later.
  14. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4

    That's just a poor excuse for Lucas' hack storytelling.



    In one sentence, explain what the imbalance of the force is.[face_monkey]
  15. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    It's the Dark Side existing in a state in which the Light Side does not adequately counterbalance its harmful effects.
  16. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Sith....