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Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 318: The Citadel Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by Gry Sarth, Feb 14, 2011.

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  1. hear+soul

    hear+soul Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2004
    I got walken as well. :p
     
  2. XCell

    XCell Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2004
    The stowaway Ahsoka thing was annoying, but not that big a deal. It just felt too much like a rehash of Weapons Factory. 'You don't trust me, I can handle the risk, it's not fair!' I have a feeling she was included just so there would be a female on the team for this arc. Her presence will probably be another 'she was right, she saved the day' scenario.
     
  3. GallifreyanSith

    GallifreyanSith Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2010
    Between the character model and the voice, I kept thinking he was the Black Mask from "Under The Red Hood".
     
  4. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Obviously I strongly disagree, I think it makes zero sense.

    From the Council's point of view, I'll look at Anakin first. She was given to him to help him let go of his attachments. Is that really a good idea, especially during a war? Why give someone you know has major problems with attachments another attachment? Why pile on another burden during war time? Not only does he have problems with attachment, they also know he has major problems with anger, hate and of course, the dark side. Why would you give a Jedi who has problems with the dark side an apprentice? So he can pass those traits on? Anakin is not a model Jedi, he's a "problem" Jedi. You don't give a student to someone like that. Have you heard of Big Brothers Big Sisters of America? They choose "model citizens" to mentor children, not people with behavioral problems. I don't see the logic in giving a student to someone who is on the brink of failure.

    If things go poorly, it could be very dangerous. If things go "alright" but he forms yet another attachment, it would only make things worse. The only way Anakin would get better is if everything goes perfectly to plan and Anakin learns to let go of his attachments, which I think was always highly unlikely. Does this sound like a risk worth taking? To me, it sounds like an unbelievably stupid risk, one definitely not worth taking. Considering the risks and rewards and the likelihood of both, it's just stupid. How do we help Anakin let go of his attachments? By giving him another attachment! Good idea! That won't blow up in our faces!:rolleyes:

    If they had to give him a Padawan, it shouldn't have been Ahsoka. It should have been the absolute best Padawan available, a "sure thing" if you will (Obviously there is no sure thing, but you know what I mean). One that would make it to Knighthood regardless of his/her master. If this Padawan doesn't exist, then don't give him one. Instead, they gave a Jedi Knight with major problems a Padawan with major problems. They gave him a "problem" Padawan. Good idea! They're just setting him up for failure. They gave him a Padawan who was too aggressive, arrogant and disobedient, problems Anakin never figured out for himself. How is he supposed to teach something he doesn't know himself? If they were counting on the two of them learning together, well again I think that's a stupid risk and it obviously backfired. (We've seen ROTS, Anakin never corrected these flaws in himself)

    Now I'll look at Ahsoka. What were her problems? Aggression, arrogance and lack of discipline. They gave her to a Master with these same problems. Again, how is he supposed to teach her something (passiveness, humility and discipline) he does not know? Anakin isn't just aggressive, he's hyper aggressive. He doesn't know when to be aggressive and when to hold back, often charging into battle prematurely like an idiot. He doesn't know when he's going too far, like slaughtering an entire tribe of Tuskens. Compare him to someone like Agen Kolar, who is aggressive, but knows how to handle it. Kolar often attacks first, disabling his opponents, then asks questions later. Anakin is the type to attack first, kill everyone and not bother asking questions. Anakin isn't going to help Ahsoka learn to control her aggressiveness. Arrogance? I don't need to say much, both Anakin and Ahsoka are extremely arrogant an
     
  5. Darth_Tarkus

    Darth_Tarkus Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2011
    You make a solid case for your viewpoint, we just disagree on the fundamentals. I don't think anyone realizes how close to the Dark Side Anakin is. I don't think giving him a Padawan is more likely to make him go completely against the Jedi and willingly turn to the Dark Side than it is to give him some much-needed practice at letting go. I do think that confronting that problem rather than shying away from it is the smart thing to do if the Council wants Anakin to see the error of over-attachment. I do think that giving the troubled Jedi a troubled Padawan so that he can see his own tendencies in a different light (which is unquestionably what happens - Anakin gets infuriated over Ahsoka doing the very things he does routinely) and amend his habits (which he has so far failed to) is the smart way to go about making him see the error of his ways for himself rather than others preaching to him in self-righteous or authoritarian tones. Do you think it would have been a smarter decision to just ignore Anakin's attachment issues and never challenge him on them? Can you think of a better way to get him to confront his own shortcomings than to give him a Padawan with the same issues? And don't say a lecture from the Jedi unless you have a detailed explanation of how that would work, that is not a smarter way to get someone to change their behavior.

    You can disagree with the decisions characters in a story make without chalking it up to deficiencies in the writing. Characters often makes choices that are intended to be poor to make a point, although I don't think that's the case here.
     
  6. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Are you saying monkey lizards are stupid?!:mad: Someone here is bit annoying as well- guess who?[face_monkey]
     
  7. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2004
    CT, props for explaining your point of view. It explains a lot. I can kind of see where you're coming from, but I totally agree with Tarkus on why assigning Ahsoka to Anakin would be the best way to confront him with his own faults.

    ...THE THREADS WILL RUN RED WITH THE BLOOD OF THE INFIDELS! [face_skull]

    Insulting his Almighty Awesomeness is now a bannable offense! The remaining infidels will be hunted down and defeated! The attempt on the Majesty of Mischief has left the board scarred and deformed. But, I assure you, our resolve has never been stronger! In order to ensure our piety and continuing worship, LACWAC will be reorganized into the first Monkey Lizard Monastery...for a safe and secure society! [face_skull]

     
  8. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    remember i just defended Monkey Lizards from CT... if jedi council's intelligence and wisdom would be on monkey lizard -level there would be no problems in the galaxy[face_laugh]
     
  9. AkashKedavra_93

    AkashKedavra_93 Moderator Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2011
    The Bespin facility was far more crude than the one in the Jedi Temple.
    She should not be kicked out of the Jedi Order for being a brat. If that was the case, then Anakin would have been kicked out long ago. Considering that Anakin rarely follows his orders from above, it seems only logical that Ahsoka would do the same.
     
  10. Glymphid_Warlord

    Glymphid_Warlord Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Wow. Dave Filoni's episode commentary makes absolutely no sense; he acts like Vader knew that the carbon-freezing would work for Luke, because he had 'done it before.'

    Yes, he HAD done it before: TO HAN!

    Yet Filoni acts like Vader must have meant way before, like, in The Clone Wars. :rolleyes: But I just watched the original scene from The Empire Strikes Back, and when Boba Fett says, "What if he doesn't survive?," Vader replies, "The Empire will compensate you if he dies." Why would he die, though, if Vader knew it would work b/c of a previous carbon-freezing experience during the Clone Wars? That just makes no sense. If anything, you'd think Vader would have responded to Fett with something akin to, "Don't worry; it will work. I've done this before." And then there's the whole issue that, even if Filoni can somehow still explain this away, he cannot explain away the breach of continuity between this episode and Shipyards of Doom. So... Mr. Filoni, I am not convinced.
     
  11. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    ^yeah it makes sense more than you first may think- Vader says "This facility is crude, but it should be adequate to freeze Skywalker for his journey to the Emperor"- so he knows it can be done with better facility- i always wondered where he did learn that since i always get the impression he has done it before and now it definitely makes sense- Lando was like "Hey we have never frozen anyone- it can kill" and Vader won't take a risk with someone as valuable as Luke- if crude facility kills his son his last hope of overthrowing the Palpy is gone- there is no problem at all it was all about testing if Bespin's "crude facility" can do the same as one better from the jedi council.....

    Damn it it's bespin's CRUDE CHAMBER they are talking about that comment tells that vader HAS DONE IT BEFORE with better one and IT MAKES SENSE- proven many times


    Bespin's chamber is different thing Lando says it may not be safe since he has no experience of such oddity as freezing living beings so Vader says "let's test it with Solo"- i always find it odd he even considers such a crazy idea but now it is logic better than ever- Bespin's crude chamber may kill so let's test it first just to be sure....
     
  12. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    The frequency and importance of these poor decisions made by the Council is why I chalk it up to bad writing. This is how I see it, feel free to see it any way you want.

    As for Anakin....

    (1) I think Yoda and Obi-Wan have a pretty good idea that Anakin is straddling the line.
    (2) I never said that. In fact, what you said is just way too simple and not an equal comparison. What I am focused on is that Anakin is more likely to fail that he is to succeed and the consequences of that failure would be severe.
    (3) I could go either way on that. Confront or avoid. More on that later.
    (4) It's smart in theory, but I just think they're asking Anakin to make a leap he is incapable of.
    (5) The problem is, the Jedi are pretty much just screwed when it comes to Anakin. They knew from the beginning how difficult it would be, but they just kept making one mistake after another and refused to cut their losses.


    If it were me, I never would have trained him in the first place. If he was to be trained, I would have chosen Mace. After he was given to Obi-Wan and didn't improve (he actually got worse), I would have failed him or reassigned him to Mace. I would not have promoted him to Knight before he was ready. Once he was promoted, I would have separated him from Obi-Wan as much as possible to force him to break that attachment. Instead of giving him another attachment, take away an already existing one. Keep him moving, working with various Knights (ones that would be a good influence), never let him get too close to any of them.


    I would not have given him a Padawan, don't give him another attachment to worry about. Once the decision was made to give him a Padawan, I wouldn't have given him Ahsoka, I would have given him an easier student, someone whose path to Knighthood would be much smoother and less stressful for Anakin. The goal is to give him someone he can train to Knighthood and let go, that means they have to actually make it to Knighthood. They should have made it as easy on him as possible, to get him through it quickly and without major problems. Assigning him a "difficult" Padawan is asking too much. They're asking him to train a Padawan, complete the training and let go of the attachment all the while correcting his ow
     
  13. venepe

    venepe Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2004
    The carbon-freezing makes perfect sense. Vader knew you could freeze people in carbonite but he just wanted to test the facility because it is a "crude" facility. Lando doesn't know you could freeze people, why would he?

    It also adds a new idea, Anakin froze himself to infiltrate so he might have the intent to actually freeze Luke so he can sneak him past the emperor and train Luke himself.
     
  14. Darth_Tarkus

    Darth_Tarkus Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2011
    1) I agree that those two are keenly aware of the danger.
    2) I know you didn't say that, I just think the likely possible benefits would seem to outweigh the likely possible problems, from the perspective of the Jedi making the decision.
    3) I definitely don't think avoiding the problem completely would've helped at all. I think they made a flawed decision that was probably their best option.
    4) I agree with you on that too, and all your points to that effect in your paragraphs, but the problem comes back to 3.
    5) Same as as 4.
     
  15. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 6, 2005
    Any carbon freezing chamber could be crude. The chambers aren't meant to freeze living beings in the first place. If Vader knew carbon freezing chambers are guarantee to freeze living beings without consequences, he would have gone straight to freezing Luke without getting Han involved. He didn't want Luke to be hurt, so he wanted to test the facility's freezing on Han to see if it works. I don't see how the "crudeness" fits in because the chambers aren't meant to freeze living beings. Boba even questions Han's survivability to Vader, and Vader most likely understands it's a 50/50 chance if he's going to survive or not per the dialogue.
     
  16. venepe

    venepe Jedi Master star 1

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    Feb 25, 2004
    Well, it's "crude" to Vader because he has experience in the matter, so he knows what the "system requirements" are for a successful freezing. He seems to think is adequate but he is not sure, and he doesn't want to risk it. In theory I believe if the facility was better in Vader's point of view he wouldn't have wasted time freezing Han.
     
  17. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 6, 2005
    Yes, we both agree with that. What I don't seem to get is what Filoni was rambling about. If Vader knew carbon freezing chambers could freeze living beings, and thus freeze Luke, why would he go ahead and test it on Han? That's what I got out of it, and that doesn't make any sense.

    I guess in Vader's mind, the Jedi Temple's odd "why is this even here" carbon freezing chamber is better than a suitable fitting carbon freezing chamber on a world that properly uses it, to freeze tibanna gas.

    Boggles the mind. :p There could be some things that are comparable to this. I.e, do you think caravel rides are less safer than permanent amusement park rides, or something like that.
     
  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Because according to Vader, the facility was crude, and as such there could be a risk when freezing people.
     
  19. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 6, 2005
    You should read what I said above.

    To be honest, any carbon freezing chamber could be crude. Doesn't make a lot of sense to point your finger at Bespin's and say "Bad, need to test."
     
  20. venepe

    venepe Jedi Master star 1

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    Feb 25, 2004
    True. But for all we know carbon freezing chambers may be a common thing used to freeze various types of things. Anakin is supposed to be a tech wiz so he has the ability to tweek the chamber and also for all we know the Temple chamber has been tested already.
     
  21. Darth_Tarkus

    Darth_Tarkus Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 10, 2011
    It could also be interpreted the opposite way though, that the chamber on Coruscant would be top-notch (because it's Coruscant) and of much greater quality than the chamber on a gas mine out in the middle of no where. I wasn't thrilled about the whole thing being in there either, but that's one way of looking at it.
     
  22. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Could be or not, that's an assumption you make. You can't blame Filoni for not thinking that way.

    More like "Probably bad for humans, need to test." ;)
     
  23. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 6, 2005
    You know, I was going to bring that up. Anakin should have tested something, or at least say "It's fine, I tested it" in the episode. Fives pointed out his worries, and Anakin could have stepped in.

    That would make somewhat better sense. I think any facility could be crude, and not just "Bespin's facility probably sucks/lacks something, and I need to test it out."
     
  24. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    I'm fine with the carbon freezing. The only problem I have is that they unnecessarily retconned Shipyards of Doom, a TCW novella. Way to retcon your own continuity.
     
  25. Humble_Jedi

    Humble_Jedi Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 14, 2004
    Ok, so now the problem is not:

    How come he didn't know in TESB?

    But:

    How come he knew what he knew in 'The Citadel'? [face_laugh]

    This episode definitely needs a prequel explaining the temple's carbon freezer. [face_laugh]
     
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