Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 319: Counterattack Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Barriss_Coffee, Feb 28, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Drunk_Lando Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2010
    star 1
    That's thinking too much. Why not just bomb every planet and save on a ground war. Where is the fun in that. The usually way around this plot point was to say the planet has shields so you have to conduct a ground campaign, like on Hoth.

    Also, the attack on Geonosis was not just to save three people. The Republic found out the Separatists were building a large army there and were planning to attack them.

    As for the Jedi. What sacrifices are you talking about? How are the Jedi making things harder than necessary?
  2. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Well, in the last episode, Tarkin wanted them to stick together as a single group. They'd have more firepower that way, and there would be less of a chance that things would go wrong.

    He didn't like the plan, and by the end of this episode, it seems he was proven right. The only thing to come from splitting their team in half was losing half their clones, and their only way off the planet.

    So yeah, there aren't really that many examples I can think of before this episode, but he had a point, and he was proven right.
  3. Altineer Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2010
    I want to know more about Lola Sayu, after all you cannot introduce such a cool planet as one missing a quarter of her mass, with the core directly exposed and hundreds of dozen mile wide chunks of the crust floating in orbit and just leave it as an interesting piece of eye candy.

    What happened? Mining accident? Superweapon test? Planetary collision? When did it happen? What maintains the atmosphere when such a high energy impact would have actually stripped it clean from the surface (IIRC - the energy required to vaporize the atmosphere would be 1% of the total energy needed to cause that much damage to the crust)?
  4. Darth_Tarkus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2011
    star 4
    I don't think that's an example of a disagreement that happened because the Jedi wanted to stick the Code. It was just a disagreement.
  5. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    What does that have to do with the Jedi code? :confused:
  6. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    But the Jedi for the most part do that.....not making the necessary sacrifices is something Anakin wouldn't do.
  7. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    If there's a choice between victory and saving lives, the Jedi will choose to save lives.

    As for Geonosis, the tactic I suggested is way too aggressive for the Jedi to even consider. They lack that ultra-aggression that is sometimes required for victory. Sometimes resistance needs to be crushed, and the Jedi don't want to crush anybody. There are some (many) sacrifices that the Jedi are unwilling to make, and that's why it's difficult for them to win a war.

    Their methods aren't very efficient when it comes to winning wars, it's just that the Jedi have superpowers capable of overcoming that inefficiency.
  8. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    You have to remember however what is the ?known? command structure and what is the secretive command structure created behind the scenes. Yes, Palpatine sets stuff in motion in order for the Jedi to not achieve victory; he is able to do this, as you say, through falsified intelligence and his control and manipulations of both sides political structures (as well as direct control of the Confederate military). However for officers like Tarkin (and everyone else who isn?t Palpatine) the Jedi are running ?their own war?. They develop the tactics and the Jedi are often seen running the war without Palpatine?s direct influence. When have you seen Palpatine actually run the war? The Jedi often override his ?opinions? and can be seen determining the tactical progression of the war.

    So Tarkin?s comments are perfectly legitimate. The Jedi are running the war in every way; Palpatine is however secretly running the war.

    The Jedi Code prevents logical and necessary military decisions. The Jedi, as Tarkin says, are peace keepers and their primary function is the maintain peace. Peace keepers should not really be running a war since war often requires aggressive decisions. A peace keeper, as the Jedi Code reinforces, would always value lives over that of a military victory. Unfortunately in war you must place victory over that of lives... within reason obviously.

    As Charles de Gaulle said, to paraphrase, ?we would gladly sacrifice thousands of civilian lives if it meant liberation?. It?s a sad truth about war, however the Jedi struggle with the ?morality of violence?. It ultimately brings us back to ?balance? and what it means to be ?balanced? in the Force. The Jedi need to leave behind their dogma and adapt to this war for the greater good...
  9. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    They talked about this quite a lot in Shatterpoint. Mace says they should have nuked Geonosis and sacrificed Obi-Wan and Anakin.

    I think the Jedi would have difficulty with the concepts of acceptable losses, total war, collateral damage, etc.
  10. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    IIRC, it was Depa, not Mace, who made the argument about nuking the Geonosian arena. :-B
  11. Jabba_The_Hutt_123 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2003
    star 3
    They should bring back Revan and have him lead the war :p
  12. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    If you don't get what Tarkin meant- he probably meant that jedi code wouldn't allow things like killing unarmed opponents and i think jedi does all they can to avoid civilian casualties (as we saw in Ryloth) which is not generally "good tactic" always- Tarkin may have just bombed those "living shields" since losing one village of tailheads is not big loss for republic if they can destroy separatist-positions that way- war is not easy for commanders who try to avoid killing- like jedi- Tarkin don't really care if few civilians (or entire planeto_O ) blow up for 'good cause'..... that is what he meant (he thinks little evil for greater good is ok) it's also jedi code and similar idealistic moral code many senators follow that makes it impossible for Republic to execute warcriminals without trial- yes it would be barbaric but republic is so corrupted that this makes it easy for these political criminals to use loopholes of the law to save them in trials- everyone knows Trade Federation is neutral but jedi cannot intervene because there is no proof and some bribed judge or cunning lawyer can release those obvious warcriminals if proof is not found.... jedi are loyal to the republic and as Anakin says in ROTS Windu actually was about to break the jedi code since killing Palpatine would have been violation of code......

    I think Tarkin thinks much like Falor Windrider does when he says how 'stupid' republic is in this series- maybe he can explain:p .... Tarkin probably blames jedi from this 'stupidity' jedi code don't allow assassinations or anything.... and Tarkin is not even completely wrong- he is not even pure evil now- he is later just corrupted by power very quickly and Emperor appreciates men like him they're excellent instruments of his rule..... but just like Dooku, Tarkin is going to right direction first but then he becomes evil- it's all about balance once again:p ....

    Nope- same problem Anakin has with himself and his friends jedi order has with republic- jedi babble about not having attachments yet entire order is deeply attached with this republic that is corrupted piece of ****- that seems obvious to me jedi are too loyal to the republic which is lead by Sith and they are too arrogant and sure for themselves they don't believe it even though Dooku said it clearly in AOTC..... 'necessary sacrifice' is thing that really causes all humane conflicts because there is where line between good and evil is so damn hard to draw- is it ok to kill 2 to save three- mathematically yes but i cannot say if 3 people are necessarily better- what if those 2 were nice good people and all those three were idiots with evil intentions and soon they kill more people and saving t
  13. Darth_Gamek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2009
    star 6
    I really don't understand the hate for this episode. This was an amazing, kick-ass episode influenced by Star Wars!!!

    R.I.P. Echo. :(
  14. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the changing number of officers in Obi Wan's party was done deliberately. There's no excuse for that kind of sloppiness.
  15. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    yeah it may be nod to classic movie goofs..... and for your signature Tarkin didn't even see her old outfit [face_laugh] Tarkin calls Ahsoka 'child' yet he watches her like that- damn pedo....

    Ahsoka: Master- i don't like how that guy stares at me!
    Anakin: If you don't like to be watched perhaps you shouldn't use outfits with those.... peepholes all over!
    Ahsoka: They're 'keyholes' master! (Wow it works- soon Skyguy notices how hot I am...)[face_laugh]
  16. rumblewagon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    Was this Tarkin's first encounter with a lying, deceptive young female?

    Captain Tarkin: "She lied. She lied to you!"
    Anakin: "I told you she would never consciously betray her desire to be included on a mission in which she was not needed."
    Captain Tarkin: "Terminate her... immediately!"
    Anakin: "Uh...getting a bit extreme there aren't you?"
    Captain Tarkin: "You just wait!"
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Just think, he's got Daala to look forward to.[face_beatup]
  18. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Haha -one day long ago I was playing with soundboards on official site and i made some crazy dialog between Ahsoka and Tarkin i never thought we would actually see them together one day[face_laugh]
    (and the discussion naturally ended up terminating the Ahsoka who was charming to the last:cool:)
    Ahsoka portrayed quite a bad@ssery with thermal detonators and i don't mind at all she came along- i dunno i have started to like her actually -they should still use her less on fourth season since they made quite a marathon of ahsoka-eps now.....
  19. hear+soul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 6
    Pretty fair assessment.

    I'm still wondering which clones are left from that squad?

    Just Fives?
  20. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    I really don't agree with that though. The Mortis trilogy confirmed that partaking in the war led to their downfall (which was already established by the prequels). I'm not saying they should have ignored the war, I think they shouldn't have picked sides. They should have worked for peace. If they had chosen to stay an outside faction, they might have exposed the machinated war for what it was.

    But that is a different discussion from what my question was...

    As for whoever said that the Jedi wouldn't kill unarmed opponents, I'm pretty sure that would be a war crime even for the military, wouldn't it? I'm not sure about rules of engagement in the republic, but one would assume it would be something similar to our conventions.
  21. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Jedi were working against their own code when attached themselves to the republic- it's complicated subject but Philosopher is right about this being just the same balance thing from one point of view.... i don't think anything could've been done differently actually it was nature of jedi to fall because that was their destiny- will of the force[face_skull]
    But bombarding civilians is not actual 'warcrime'- but jedi don't really use that tactic i think jedi have more strict morale what comes to harming civilians- one example could be that- another is soft interrogation methods- terror is not the weapon jedi use- yet it's working and Tarkin knows that....
  22. ILuvJarJar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2008
    star 6
    Good episode, but it wasn't as good as an episode as "The Citadel" was.

    I liked that they killed off Echo. I mean, I loved Echo as a character, but it really gives the show was it was missing, unpredictability.

    I also liked the grusome death of the clone trooper being chopped in half. Even though it wasn't shown, it was heard once the blast doors shut on him.

    Overall I was happy with the episode despite that it was weaker than its previous episode and the previous Mortis trilogy.
  23. Drunk_Lando Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2010
    star 1
    This depend on what media you are using. I think the Jedi in the EU would chose victory over saving lives, but they wouldn't just go around slaughtering people or killing indiscriminately. Jedi in the EU would also sacrifice their lives for victory. Clones would be the same way.
    Again, I think it depends what media you use. Palpatine should be the one who decides on the rules of engagement and how the war is fought. If Palpatine ordered the bombardment of a planet, they there is no reason to think the Jedi would not follow that order. Failure to follow an legitimate order from your Commander-in-Chief could be considered treason or mutiny. Palpatine would probably have enjoyed this because it gives him a reason to use Order 66, and then find someone else to carry the order out. As for interrogation methods. The EU created Republic Intelligence. Shouldn't they be the ones interrogating prisoners. TCW just shows Jedi leading clones, and basically doing everything in the war for simplicity. The EU has done things differently.

    The Jedi are not attached to the Republic. The Jedi serve the Republic as they have done for generations. The Republic is being attacked by the CIS. The CIS is an enemy of the Republic. Why shouldn't the Jedi fight for the Republic and defend it from its enemies. And since Palpatine wants the war, then it is also possible he put the Jedi into a position into which they had to serve or be declared traitors like the CIS.
  24. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Yes it is. According to international law it is a war crime, the same goes for harming opponents that have laid down their weapons. It is also explicitly forbidden to give no quarter.

    I can't imagine the republic not having those types of conventions, so I'm still looking for an explanation on how the Jedi code hinders effectiveness. All examples given so far, are things that the military shouldn't be doing either. In other words, I still feel like we haven't come up with an example that's not a war crime.
  25. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    The Republic is just as guilty for orbital bombarding planets, ect.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.