Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Barriss_Coffee, Feb 28, 2011.
I didn't mean anything by it, really. Sorry about that.
If war crimes are actually still considered a bad thing in your country, be grateful, that's all I'm sayin'.
(I'm technically still on-topic, mods! Please don't delete this post. The cultural differences of the posters is part of the fun, speaking sociologically of course, right?)
Review from Den of Geek:
Yes, the Geneva Conventions and other such treaties outline these laws; however it does depend on what you mean by ?bombing civilians?. Bombing civilians in itself is not a war crime. However is explicit that the bombing must be for strategically relevant during the war. As such a war crime would be the bombing of cities which have already surrendered or are of no strategic importance. As such the bombing of Berlin (partly because it was a retaliation to the Blitz) was not seen as a war crime as it was strategically important ? the same can be said for a few other German cities. However the Dresden bombing (controversially) may be seen as a war crime as was, in truth, not strategically important.
As for an example of what isn?t a war crime and what the Jedi should be doing ? the Jedi are too passive to be leading this war. The battles we have seen have been primarily defensive or liberating oppressed Republic worlds (areas which have been overrun by the Separatists) excluding the Geonosis campaigns (which can be likened to more of a real-world strategic bombing). The Jedi really need to be aggressive with this war and they need to launch an offensive to strike into the heart of the Confederacy. The fact they are peace keepers ? and that they primarily try and negotiate ? seem to be hampering their ability to really run this war properly. Their Jedi Code in itself forbids using the Force ?for attack? and as such it prevents them from truly disposing of the Separatist threat. If a country were to attack you and you beat them back you shouldn?t stop at the enemy border ? in modern warfare it is essential you actually defeat the enemy or they?ll just attack again later... it is clear the Confederacy isn?t going to sue for peace nor is the Republic... the Jedi need to invade the Confederacy decisively.
As Mace says they are ?keepers of the peace, not soldiers?.
I think it truly depends on the style of leadership of the head of state during war time and where the decision making action (not necessarily power) lie. It is clear that in the context of the Republic, while the Chancellor is the Commander-in-Chief, he is not necessarily the person leading the war effort. It is clear that duty has been given to the Jedi and, more specifically, the Jedi Council. The Chancellor may offer his opinions
So i thought and that is what i meant- it's not always warcrime while of course not acceptable... i think jedi don't bombard any civilians we have never seen them doing so not even on Geonosis where they use flamethrowers (weapons causing unnecessary suffering) they don't bombard even tactical place with any civilians- like geonosian's nests -they focus only on warriors and their droids and rather sacrifice their troops by going on land instead of using orbital bombardment like Empire or CIS- Geonosian factories were rayshielded against bombing thought so they could have used bombardment against it- but for example on Muunilinst they went by land to Harnaidan instead of bombing the place- they could have sent the arc team for generator and then bomb the place to ruins- would have meant less casualties to clone ranks but huge damage to infrastructure and possible civilian casualties and those jedi try to avoid at all costs.... of course Muunilinst battle from old CW is bad example- how it even works with this new IGBC is neutral situation .... well if San Hill is extremist and his troops and dealings with CIS are not accepted by the governing board of IGBC- or whatever it has- then it could work- would be nice to see prequel dealing with political storm caused by Palpy's decision to attack Muunilinst and conflict with the banking clan- since jedi did that decision with chancellor it could explain further the Palpy's speech in some episode where he defends the jedi who are accused of starting this war...
Jedi never attack ideal is not tactically very good in a war and they had to break their code by attacking many times over- yet they seem to avoid direct assaults to key locales of CIS possibly because they have not enough troops or ships to attack them- i hope we will see massive Republic assault on Raxus during "endgame" and that would lead to dissolving of seppie senate and exile of Dooku and seppie council- and Outer Rim sieges would become- at the time Ahsoka's fate would be solved and same with Rex so it would work with old series that shows Anakin and Obi-Wan with Cody during Outer Rim sieges- no signs of Ahsoka or Rex....
Here is some more information regarding the ?Bombing of Civilians? and the laws which bind such actions. It is made clear by the various conventions which establish the ?laws of war? that in order for a target containing civilians to be bombed in accordance with international law it must correspond with the following; military necessity, proportionality and distinction.
Military Necessity is obviously the necessity of the target in the destruction of the enemy. In other words the target must have some type of military relevance in order for it to be designated an appropriate target. Proportionality and Distinction determine the amount of collateral damage acceptable in contrast to the military damage and the literal ?distinction? between military and civilian (or defended and undefended) targets respectively.
As per Article 25 of the Hague Convention of 1907
This of course deals with the issue of distinction.
Essentially what this all means is that you are able to bomb civilian targets however it must have military necessity, the proportionality of the civilian dead to military ?damage? must be realistic (must not be an excess of civilian dead) and there must be clear distinctions made between what is targeted and what isn?t (you must only ?target? defended emplacements).
A war crime would be indistinguishable carpet bombing (bombing an entire city without actually ?targeting? government and military districts), terror bombing and bombing after a city has surrendered. Obviously I would imagine this is sometimes overlooked for capital cities which are simply relentlessly bombed (however given they are essentially entire military targets it can somewhat be justified). Such examples in World War 2 respectively would be the bombing of Rotterdam and the annihilation of a certain Czech city of Lidice.
Essentially all military actions (land, sea, air, ?space?) abide by these same basic fundamentals set out in Hague and Geneva.
So essentially this is something the Jedi would struggle with (the morality of violence is the other term for it). Ultimately, whether we like it or not, war is not pretty; civilians will die and there will be deaths which were not belligerents. The unfortunate reality is however that sometimes these things have to happen in order to launch a successful war. If you bomb the enemy capital there will no doubt be civilian casualties. That is something which must happen in order for the war to progress sadly. War is not the glorious ?one side is innocent of killing civilians and the other isn?t?... in every war certain distinctions must be made between what is ?acceptable? civilian deaths and what isn?t... that is the reality of war and is something I think the Jedi may struggle with.
I've read the treaties of The Hague too, hence my reply to Swashbucklingjedi. The point is that every necessary precaution must be taken to avoid the bombing of non-military targets. That means that while civilian casualties can never be fully prevented, the targeting of any civilian area is still prohibited.
Not saying I disagree with this, but I just so happen to live in Rotterdam, so this really hits home (pun intended).
Rotterdam was only on paper a defended city. There were no military installations in Rotterdam whatsoever. The Netherlands hardly even had an army at that time because we had been demilitarizing heavily in the early 20th century. There was only a single battalion of marines in Rotterdam that somehow managed to halt the German army at the few bridges we hadn't blown up yet.
Hitler simply thought Holland was too much of a hassle, so he decided to carpet bomb the entire city centre with the added blackmail threat that more cities would follow if we didn't surrender.
As such, it was a terror bombing, a cowardly villainous act that absolutely destroyed our once beautiful city and cost only civilians lives and targets.
But where's the difference with the military? Even the military should take every necessary precaution to avoid hitting civilian targets when attacking a capital city.
Perhaps it's a matter of the Jedi not wanting to sacrifice any civilians whatsoever, while the military would see certain losses as acceptable?
It seems a bit self-contradictory for the Jedi... they are supposed to have no attachments, they should not mourn for those who transform into the Force. And according to Yoda, Luke needed to be willing to sacrifice Han and Leia if he wanted to honour what they stand for. Of course that's not the same as in an aggressive situation, but still there seems to be some kind of paradox there, when we're looking at the Jedi Code.
So far, so good, guys.
Let's keep this on topic. Certainly the role of the Jedi in the war is a valid topic for this thread and LACWAC in general.
If this is going to get political, we've got the Senate Floor for those kinds of discussions. I'd prefer to keep your personal politics views out of the thread, although if you'd like to discuss your views of what the Jedi should or shouldn't be doing, that's fine.
*Covers his eyes to avoid spoilers so he can ask a question*
I accidentaly came across a spoiler that said a clone got cut in half by a blast door in this episode. May I ask just how graphic this sequence is? I ask because I find it interesting this would make it into the show yet CN said no to Ventress' Kiss of Death.
I don't think jedi code even makes perfect sense actually -it's why i like the idea of Luke changing the code and being more realistic than old jedi whose code makes no sense- old code goes to extreme views of the light being completely selfless etc. yet it contradicts itself what comes to republic- they are defending the republic to the last -not justice republic is not always same as peace and justice- and that death-thing is bit bizarre and Yoda don't follow it himself- if death is so damn happy thing- isn't killing then not evil at all- no- it's all about balance- life and death both in balance sadness and joy all of those you need not to rejoice death but being able to rejoice about one becoming one with the Force- balances the sadness and despair of losing life- that's why Yoda says so i think......
sadness and grief come easily -but rejoicing don't- so you need to focus on that to be able to keep yourself in balance...... but i think old jedi order is pretty much like daughter of the Mortis trilogy- selflessness kills her(or was it attachment after all) so it's not perfect way to be 'good' -it has it's weakness- only way to be good is to be in balance and then it requires bit dark side- bit attachment, bit selfishness, bit passion but lot of work to control those and be compassionate and selfless as much as possible.....
Same logic works in everything- easy dark side- harder light side and good area is only in the middle- accepting the dark and focusing on keeping light alive.... jedi had problems in accepting the dark.....
damn this went to Mortis-stuff again
But Tarkin is not loving the jedi because he is bad guy and he don't care about little warcrimes....
Not seen at all- just heard.....
discussion gave wrong impression- Obi-Wan warns about blastdoors and we hear screaming of the clone and report of losed men- nothing is seen about that happening....
You see a clone caught between two rooms where the door will be closed. He is screaming and then a door closes, obscuring our view, and you hear a crunch.
commentary is up -it's about Tarkin- nothing new really- all that we probably understood when we saw the episode....
Aren't most of the commentaries like that? They're fun to watch for the sake of random trivia, but Ghosts of Mortis was the only real standout one.
There have been so many TCW moments that have had more extreme violence than the Kiss of Death, it's so hypocritical. Probably a couple in this episode worse than the elevator death.
I'm guessing they would call it "sexualized violence", but I don't want to have another reason to send this thread to the Senate Floor.
I still think they did that to try and snag some more viewers. Looking back at that scene, there's other violent moments than that in TCW.
What the... nothing about in Echo in the VC? Come on Dave!
Huh... I only became aware of the "Senate Floor" a few days ago, but very rapidly the threat of being sent there is coming to sound akin to being dispatched to hell, or at least "The Cornfield".
Here's what he said on his Facebook page:
"Clone trooper "Fives" will now carry on the memory of the fallen Domino Squad Members.....until next week."
Aw that makes me feel better then.
D: But I do hope Fives lives!
I say it's now time to see Waxer and Boil.
I want to see Jesse, Kix, and Hardcase again too.
Yeah, some dialogue with Waxer and Boil would be nice..
But then again seeing them again may not be such a good thing, seeing as the writers are coming up with fun ways to kill clones.
On the blast doors, you just hear it, after seeing the trooper stuck for a moment. It's still shocking.
And on the Filoni thing, YAY ROBOTECH! But Roy was arguably the second main character and brother to the main-main character, so it's an odd thing to compare Fives to such a high-profile guy. Also, Roy's mecha was the symbol of the show basically.
I think we should talk about the fact that he's treating Fives like he's a lot more important than he has been. Maybe he's going to gain a bit more character from all this, become more regular a cast member? I dunno, just seems like a possibility.
Me too, I really like Jesse in particular.
Glad Filoni took time out to address Echo and I think this might confirm that Echo is definitely dead and that Fives will survive this week. It'd be a complete waste of finally being able to building up Fives now that he's the lone survivor of Domino Squad, to kill him off this week.
I do hope someone(particularly Anakin, Rex or Cody) come and talk to Fives. They see he is still a bit shaken after losing Echo and try to boost him up a bit. Though I wouldn't mind if it was Ahsoka or Obi-Wan either because they probably battle alongside both of them during their time in the 501st as well.