Discussion in 'Live Action, Clone Wars & Classics' started by Barriss_Coffee, Feb 28, 2011.
Agreed. Maybe even at the end of the episode Fives saying something..
Serious awesome points to Dave for mentioning Robotech.
Also I'm liking the reprogrammed battle droids I hope we can see more of them in the future.
Robotech yay, but comparing Echo to Roy Fokker is pretty funny.
I don't think he was comparing Echo to him but just stating an example.
The death of Echo hit the audience harder than they expected. Friday night the comments on the Episode Guide were out of control.
If they want to have Fives carry on Domino Squad's memory, give him some bloody characterization. Now that he's lost everyone, he could develop into a rather somber character to offset Cody's optimism and Rex's hardline attitude.
Also, a rather funny thing: Shaak Ti said that Domino Squad were the greatest soldiers she'd ever seen.
That either speaks very poorly of her skills of perception, or even worse of the Grand Army.
The dialogue is sooooo bad at times.
About Tarkin's rank: he didn't RE-enter the Republic military as a Commander because the Republic didn't even have one until they found out this clone army existed. He was part of the Outland Regions Security Force, not the Navy.
One thing I like about this trilogy so far is their attention to detail. OOM-10 and the other two had pilot's colors while Sobeck's security droids had the appropriate red paint.
I posted this on another SW board: Actually, since I've always thought, given how the GCW was meant to resemble WW2, that TCW was more like WW1, it would more be fitting if Fives was to get put into another unit, have almost all of them survive at least a whole season so he forms some attachments, then kill them off in some blunderous "big push" attack and leave Fives shellshocked and getting treated poorly because of it because he's a clone. THAT would totally be in character for him - he had the least amount of personality: he wasn't a hard charging weapons specialist, a comedian, he didn't repeat every order or always get shot up by the training droids. In fact, his name came from his serial number. The guy is a living statistic. And maybe he's not gonna pull a Sergeant Slick anytime soon but the reality of that has got to, at some point, come down on him like a pile of bricks.
Fives is a clone trooper, not a sentient human soldier. The reality of war has been ingrained in him since the day he was born. The clones were bred to be a living statistic, they all know this. I wouldn't buy into a "woe is me", shellshocked, thousand yard stare attitude from a clone trooper.
Yeah, I see what you are saying. But then again I think you may have misinterpreted Swash?s comment about ?bombing civilians?. Obviously he didn?t mean that the Jedi should specifically target civilians (since that would certainly be a war crime), but rather that they seem to struggle with the ?legal? bombing of civilians. For instance if there is a massive military instillation within a city and this instillation is the key supply point for enemy forces (and destroying it would bring a dramatic end to the war) the Jedi would likely struggle with bombing it if there are civilians which will inevitably be in the line of thier bombs (blast radius, etc). If the ?proportionality? is ?legal? I still think the Jedi would struggle with making this key decision.
Yep, you are certainly correct. There are certainly also reports, I believe, that bombings occurred after the city had surrendered to the Germans. Which obviously, if true, would have been a considerable war crime in itself.
I must say, on the side, that Rotterdam is a truly beautiful city. Hopefully I can visit it and the rest of the Low Countries when I ravel to Europe mid this year.
As you say I think it is more of a case of the Jedi not making the essential sacrifice (not accepting any civilian casualties). While you may not ?target? civilians in hitting military targets you indirectly do. For instance bombing can create a firestorm sometimes (if incendiaries are used specifically), and while you may have targeted the military infrastructure, it is somewhat inevitable civilians are killed in the process. I think the Jedi would struggle with the notion that any civilians be killed as a result of their bombing. While you should make every effort not to kill civilians, sometimes it is inevitable that they are killed in the process.
I guess it has more to do what is done out of ?aggressive conflict? and what occurs naturally. While you may rejoice for those around you when they naturally die, in instances when this is avoidable it may be a different stor
Fives makes it out alive - or it feels like these guys were living shields for those who must survive it's bad writing if they use all those who can be sacrificed to create illusion of danger- it makes stories very predictable- if future eps will have Anakin, Obi-Wan, captain Dodonna and Jedi master Okey ImDed who is gonna die?
But Echo's death was good decision it created feeling of danger and they had guts to kill of one character fans learned to know- and as said he was more character than Fives- so i'm happy with their decision but now they shouldn't kill of Fives- he needs to die later - perhaps he even survives until dark times and becomes stormtrooper.... maybe not though he would be quite a survivalist- but now they need to invent something more unpredictable.... Rex? No way- not yet....
Yeah i meant just that- my bad english sorry..... of course it's warcrime to target civilians (and Tarkin didn't when blowing up planet with no weapons- it was same guy who complained about jedi's tactics so isn't that obvious he disagrees- maybe he even haven't changed much in 20 years he just gained power to do what he wants- we cannot now- however i think Tarkin was corrupted by his power he wouldn't blow up planets just yet but later he becomes so twisted he does that easily- apparently he has sick mind anyway damn spacenazi) Ok i meant exactly what Philosopher said- jedi don't risk any civilian lives- it's not about attachment it's compassion- attachment is unfair compassion- you are willing to sacrifice those you don't know but those you love you want to save- Anakin is willing to sacrifice entire jedi order for one woman- that is attachment problem jedi want to avoid by making marriages etc. forbidden- but as republic's servants they serve citizens of the Republic and they try to save every single one of them if possible- that's why they struggle with decisions like this "Could we somehow avoid that sacrifice" We saw how Ima-Gun-Di sacrificed himself and all his troops to save Twi'leks- and which loss was greater for the republic- loss of elite troops and jedi master or loss of twi'leks that are technically not even 'needed' to keep republic safe- jedi tend to sacrifice themselves and clones easily for civilians and Tarkin thinks that's foolish tactic- "ok it saves Twi'leks but then what who needs them if future generations has to live under corporation oppression- we should've sacrificed them instead "
Of course not all jedi agree either- jedi code itself doesn't prevent actions like that- but it's how it's read and interpret- what is good decision in the long run- it's not that easy after all- that makes jedi making decisions slowly and sometimes it's leading to more destruction and death than making fast
EDIT: ^Yeah, just giving props, Swash had the same thought just up ahead.
Thought: While I do wish Echo and Fives got more quality screentime, in the bigger picture, it's actually another incident of fairly popular recurring characters not being protected by 'character shields'. The second incident in my recent memory is King Katuunko.
So within the episodes, yeah, coulda been better, but as an incident in the series, it actually does go towards building up an 'anyone can die' atmosphere. Granted, we've gotten some of that already, but Echo was the closest to being protected by being a nice guy, I thought.
Then again, I suppose in reality, not every commando gets the chance to go out like in a movie. Some of them carry out missions in mundane ways and sometimes go out with less than a bang. Cutup got eaten by an eel of all things.
Sooooo this is actually somewhat of a good thing, to actually have SOME characters we can actually go 'will they make it out alive' over, rather than 'I really like that guy, so he's going to live, of course'. Hopefully they'll master the process and work in some characterisation* and a few more eps before they kick the bucket. Y'know, 'good concept' AND 'good execution'.
*And again, looking from that angle that the important guy who dies needs the better characterisation, I can see that Echo was the more solid choice# as opposed to Fives, who I hope is addressed next episode or eventually when he returns.
#But again, they already did it with Katuunko, so was it necessary? I suppose it helps when it hits closer to home with 'the guy on the team', as opposed to 'that distant monarch'. Oh well, it's just a thought.
Ok off-topic but I still think that they're not going to kill off Ahsoka- her death have been long-awaited since she appeared - "she is not in ROTS so she has to die soon right?" I think they are going to write her away and development to that destiny has already begun and this arc is important step towards it...... anyway enough of that -but i still think so - of course many would be disappointed though..... anyway these characters whose fate is not clear make this show far more interesting and that's why nearly everyone is sick of PadmÃ©'s assassination attempts Really- her life is in danger.... who really cares....she has to survive.....
Echo however didn't have to die- he could've had long life but he didn't so it was a surprise kind of- still not unpredictable- writers probably thought as we did "Ok we have bunch of heroes and most has to survive...Even could die but it would be too early and they need that info he has- so mission would be failed.... those 3 clones Rex, Fives and Echo can die..... Rex is too major clone to be killed off now..... Fives is not much a character anyway....soooo.... Echo will bite the dust"
As evil as it sounds i was very happy when i understood Echo is gonna die... it was good for the story.....
Katuunko's death saved Witches of the Mist and i think Satine is one character who will never see the dark times- she can- but i think she won't- not as duchess anyway.... just my guess.... i may be wrong though.... but actually I have foreseen many deaths- Katuunko, Daughter, Son(ok obvious),Father and Echo for example..... maybe i just say it out loud but everyone knows it ... i dunno.... or do i have special gift to predict their decisions?
For now i say that while Even Piell may survive this arc (he probably does) but he doesn't survive until ROTS but his retconned death will be seen in this series.....
I was hoping Fives was the one to die, but purely because this is his fifth episode.
Heh... good catch.
Along the same lines, I always assumed Echo would die immediately after Fives.
Reminds me of how in the EU, she lost so many Padawans the Jedi were reluctant to give her any more.
Haha - Shaak may be wise, powerful, kind and caring and all- but her trainees seem always to have a grim fate- non-jedi would think she is some kind of bringer of bad luck.....but what ever happened to Maris Brood- she felt to dark side and went mad but then she disappeared
They are still people, not droids. The whole point of using clones as opposed to droids is that they are sentient - they can think creatively, adapt to situations and act both independently and in a team. This is what Shaak Ti appreciates about Domino Squad, not that they are parade-ground perfect, but that they can originate new strategies in the face of the unexpected, and deploy their strengths to overcome adversity. Similarly the importance of the dictum 'never leave a man behind' in their training speaks to the perceived value of instilling a sense of brotherhood in the ranks. This is a long way from the the panicked sense of self-preservation which is the only personality we see in the battle droids.
TCW has done a good job of emphasising their individuality and sense of family, despite their sterile upbringing and genetic and environmental homogeneity. Unfortunately they are also conditioned to have an override facility to all this independence- certain direct orders that they cannot disobey. Despite this brainwashing (or genetic modification, it's unclear which from G-Level canon) they remain sentient human beings (in so far as the term 'human' has any meaning in the GFFA). It's also clear that the conditioning doesn't work as well on some - Cut Laqwane and Slick for example, and hopefully Rex too.
Clones are sentient. Look up the definition. You may not like the fact that they follow orders but that doesn't take away their sentience. I think the word you're looking for is independent.
The fact that they are genetically modified is G-canon since it was mentioned in AOTC.
I hated the ending of Clone Cadets.
True, the Kaminoans have "altered their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host", but to what degree their obedience to (say) Order 66 is hardwired through genetics and to what extent it is programmed through education still isn't very clear. Personally I think a combination of both is most likely - otherwise Cut and Slick are just defective 'bad batchers', rather than individuals whose experiences have caused them to transcend their indoctrination.
First, it should be clear that you can't hardwire the order itself genetically, because genetics doesn't work that way. We do have AOTC saying that the genetic modification makes them "more docile", "less independent" and "obedient".
A source from the EU says that Order 66 was not programmed into them by the Kaminoans, and that seems to include the combat training and education, since some of the clones in the same source didn't know about the order.
You're saying the clones aren't sentient? By what definition?
IIRC, according to Lucas the next season will deal with that issue.
It's okay I guess... the historical centre is gone though, it's all modern architecture, which isn't very interesting when you're from Australia, I suppose. (You're from Australia, right?) There is a small part left called 'Historic Delfshaven' which is nice if you want to see what it used to look like before the bombing. But there's lots more of that in Amsterdam, Delft, Alkmaar, Leiden...
If your time in The Netherlands is limited, I'd recommend visiting other cities and towns though, if you want to see picturesque and historic places, that is. There are lots of small towns with fortified centres and castles...
Presumably that means we won't see it looked into except for maybe one episode.
where he does say that? I said before i want to see some order66 training in the next season- since looks like it's not yet taught to them in TCW.... cool i wonder if Rex will desert because of that as I speculated before