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TCW Episode The Clone Wars: Episode 319: Counterattack Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Barriss_Coffee, Feb 28, 2011.

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  1. Tordelback Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 2
    A very wide range of of human reflex behaviours in response to specific triggers are genetically determined, and indeed stimulus-response reflexes form part of standard neo-natal pediatric tests. I don't see why new behaviours tied to very particular stimuli couldn't (in theory) be genetically hardwired. It'd take some very sophisticated shuffling, but the Kaminoans are already explicitly tweaking complex areas of behaviour. It does seem more likely from the AotC that a genetic pre-disposition to obedience and dependence is what's being 'built-in', with the specifics of that obedience taught subsequently.
  2. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    AOTC tells us that the Kaminoans can tamper with the genetics to make the clones obedient, more docile, less independent. I'm just going along with that as part of the conceit of the story, something the viewer is intended to accept. However, altered genetics can't provide the clones with secret information, and can't hardwire an order in combinations of A,C,G,T. The tendency to follow orders is the main point. With that in place an alternative explanation is not even needed. The Kaminoans were probably not even in on Order 66, so that if extensively questioned they would know nothing about it. By comparison, programmed or conditioned loyalty to the Republic is a defensible feature.
  3. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5

    There is no universal definition for sentience, but mine includes self-awareness, which I don't think they possess.

    From the overall evidence we've been provided with, I don't think they are sentient.

    Don't bother responding to this, I'm not getting into this debate again and this is not the place for it.

  4. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Domino Squad seemed pretty darned self-aware in every episode they've been in. As well as Waxer and Boil. And Slick.
  5. ChrisMathers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2008
    star 1
    And Cut Lawquaine (sp?). So between Slick and Cut, a traitor and a deserter, I'd say the clones are pretty self aware, officers and commandos even more so. What were once considered abberations by the Kaminoans probably got recognized as useful by their drill sergeants and later by the Jedi and therefore you see commandos and ARCs who weren't bred for the role. And consider the ARCs. The first batch was only a hundred strong and like any other unit that saw combat took casualties.

    Also, Swash, I beg to differ with regards to the clones not being trained for Order 66. When the order came, they didn't stand around going "Hey which one was that one again?" They snapped to and opened fire. Also, you might want to rewatch Brain Invaders. One of the zombified clones said something along the lines of "Anyone knows how to take down a Jedi, it's us clones."
  6. Humble_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    You can alter the 'obedience' gene, sure.

    But there is no 'order 66' gene, nor is there any way you can modify genes to make people respond to a certain word. What are you going to do? Arrange chromosomes in binary language? There's just no plausible way to do it.
  7. Darth_Tarkus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2011
    star 4
    Isn't the point of posting on a message board to discuss these things? You think they're not self-aware - I think we've seen multiple examples including "Rising Malevolence" where they think no one will come looking for them because they're "just clones" and "The Deserter" where two clones have an existential discussion about choosing your own path in life in which at least some of them have displayed at least some considerable degree of self-awareness. Now I'm sure you similarly have reasons for believing what you do and could throw them in a sentence or two, right? We can have a civil disagreement and just discuss things, it shouldn't have to be a big deal.
  8. SpecialOpsUnit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2007
    star 4
    You'd lose the debate.

    One of the strong points of this show is that they show the clones as individuals, each different from one another in their own way. Different haircuts, accents, attitudes, opinions etc all have been shown to individualize these clones. It's just not the higher ranked clones(like Rex and Cody) it also includes the grunts for example Domino Squad, Slick, Slick's squad and it looked like Cut was nothing more than a grunt either.
  9. Humble_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Any creature that can look into a mirror and recognize it as himself, and not another specimen of his kind, is self-aware.

    Even dolphins are self-aware. You can point a camera at a dolphin and show it to him on a screen, and he'll make movements for the camera to check if it's himself he sees. (Saw that on NatGeo)
  10. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    yet CT can claim it's not 'universal definition':rolleyes: but generally accepted is 'universal' enough- sentience is in-universe and out-of-universe defined differently- dolphins for example would probably be "semi-sentient" in SW universe- like Wampa or Zillo beast- and clones definitely are fully sentient no doubt of that- they are humans- bred unnaturaly and with manipulated genetics but none of those facts affect their sentience- 'independent' or 'normal human-being' however wouldn't describe them -but they're sentient for sure..... clones are weak-minded since they are made to be obedient taking any order without question (and we must remember who says so- Lama Su- kaminoan- he advertises his work so "any order" may not necessarily be true) but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be 'sentient'- many species are naturally less independent than humans yet doubting their sentience (like imperials many times did) sounds quite a speciesistic.... clones are sentient artificial subspecies of humans manipulated to be more obedient- still they are sentient and even capable of disobeying orders- their manipulation is not perfect that way......

    actually battledroids in TCW are very sentient also- still we haven't seen any deserted droid[face_laugh] so clones definitely are more sentient.....
  11. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Just a few quick comments:

    Anyone notice Ahsoka's voice is maturing? It's deepened a little, starting to sound more like an adult and less like a little girl. This is the first time I've noticed it consistently throughout an episode.

    Ahsoka turns a corner and say something like "oh, crap" and Rex says with equal doom "dead end".

    Um, Rex doesn't know the plan? Oh well, no big deal, let it go for the sake of the story.

    The clone that got chopped in half couldn't haul his own body weight? That's strange....Another idea would be to just sit in a safe spot and wait for all the doors to close instead of tempting fate by trying to go through just one more door. He could have just waited below for Even Piell to cut a hole for him.

  12. koonfan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2008
    star 4
    Actually, thought I'd chip in with my two cents. Not a watertight theory, but I'm game to try. :)

    Maybe it's a case of one or more of the Jedi involved (Plo, Anakin and/or Obi-Wan) wanting to keep the plan on a need-to-know basis only amongst just fellow Jedi. Could mean a couple of things.
    1. There's a possible gap growing between Jedi and clones as the war goes on. Not likely in the context of these three, but possible.
    2. The Jedi had planned it this way in case of capture and torture, so if anyone was captured, the troopers would have nothing. Perhaps the Jedi have more faith in their ability to withstand pain and keep secrets, as opposed to that of clones.
  13. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Yeah I've noticed that, though I think I first really noticed it in Heroes on Both Sides (ie. new character models debut). I think it's a really nice subtle touch that they did with the character. I also like how she's the same height now as Padme (excluding montrals), just little things that add to the maturation of the character.
  14. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    yes it's clearly intentional change in Ashley's acting.....but she has young voice anyway..... still for HOBS Ahsoka did grow up too much like children in soap-operas- from kid to teenager in one night[face_laugh] of course there was year or so after assassin but still it felt bit funny...
  15. Tordelback Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 2
    I do agree with your interpretations in the context of the show, but this is an interesting discussion, so...

    There's a world of difference between the basic coding for individual proteins that you allude to, and the final individual organism - embryological development throws up the most enormously complex structures from those simplest of pairings. Coding for very specific responses to images and sounds must be present somewhere in the genome - not all behaviours are learned. Responses to very particular cries, scents and patterns are all hard-wired into various organism - bees' innate ability to read detailed locational information from the 'dances' of their fellows being one example. It'd take a simply incredible understanding of developmental embryology to achieve, but I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of a hardwired response to a very specific pattern of sound.

    That said, I don't think this is what's going on on Kamino.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    There is an agreed-upon definition, that's how language works. It can be looked up. In fact, etymologically speaking, it can even be gleaned from inspection of the word itself. But if you want to discuss "self-awareness", look no further than Cody in the ROTS novel ( among other examples, including the TCW ones that were already cited ).

    Furthermore, what word or collection of sounds would you use? "Order 66"? How would that possibly translate to the specific behavior "kill Jedi"? What about the clones who only heard "Blast him", or their counterparts in EU? The idea is that the Jedi are now to be considered enemies of the Republic army. That's not really a case of triggered responses in the sense suggested. It's the arrival of new information regarding a change in targets. The clones are conditioned to be fundamentally amoral in this way. If you have clones second-guessing their orders at every turn you don't really have a functional army. The plausibility or implausibility of a Jedi coup attempt should be more or less irrelevant to them as long as they think they're getting a legitimate order from Republic high command.
  17. Darth_Tarkus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2011
    star 4
    Haha I love how CT just wanted to throw it out there and outright refuse to actually discuss it, but we're doing just fine discussing it amongst ourselves. [face_laugh] Interesting points, all around. =D=
  18. jedi-soon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2001
    star 2
    I'm really enjoying the emergence of Tarkin in the show, as well as his tendency to identify with Anakin's ambivalence toward the Jedi. I took his stance as an off-the-cuff reference to the interrogation tactics he displayed in season 2 and subsequent refusal to share them with other Jedi later.

    That Dave Filoni mentions being influenced by such quality television as MASH and Robotech really demonstrates that this show is in good hands and headed in a compelling direction.

    On ranks and command: since it's a ground/infantry mission, Rex would be in charge, since this would be considered his primary occupational specialty. If they were on a cruiser, Tarkin would take the lead.
  19. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    No, there isn't. What truly defines sentience is still highly debated. A broad description of an abstract idea is not a true definition.

    Define "love", go ahead. It's in the dictionary, right?

  20. Darth_Tarkus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2011
    star 4
    I agree with CT on that. If you want to hear a great debate about the definition of sentience, watch the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "The Measure of a Man". Great stuff. CT already said his definition of sentience involves self-awareness, and I and others gave specific examples of clones displaying significant degrees of self-awareness, but he didn't want to discuss the issue then, but apparently when someone makes a point he can more easily refute he doesn't mind discussing the issue. Anyway, while I wouldn't exclude it I don't think self-awareness is one of the leading indicators of sentience. The only life-forms that have no self-awareness at all are plants, and people tend to think humans are the only sentient species on Earth. And in the context of the Star Wars, clearly C-3P0 and R2-D2 have some self-awareness. "Kept babbling on about his mission!" Defining sentience is really, really hard, which is why it's a fun conversation.
  21. SpecialOpsUnit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2007
    star 4
    Not surprising.
  22. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I haven't really discussed it at all, I've barely mentioned it. Three sentences that basically only said clones are not sentient because they do not possess self-awareness isn't a discussion, only a statement.

    You're exactly right, I do not mind refuting a point that is easily and quickly refuted. I do not want to discuss this at length, for a number of reasons.


    1) This is not the place, it is completely off topic. For me to explain this, it would take a huge wall of text (something I don't have the energy for and most people wouldn't read) that will probably result in a thread like the Mortis threads, only completely off topic. I have already discussed this on another forum, maybe I can dig it up and copy and paste my OP.

    2) These kinds of discussions tend to get out of control and I don't feel like getting banned over it. (as this one already has)

    3) I don't particularly like you, Tarkus, and don't care to have any discussions with you. As always, you continue to talk about me and not Star Wars. I've mostly been ignoring you for some time, but I would appreciate it if you stopped referring to me in your comments in any way.

    If the rest of you guys want to discuss it, feel free.
  23. Darth_Tarkus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2011
    star 4
    You don't like me? I'm crushed. :_| Yeah, I like to actually talk things out, so when people avoid that at all costs (especially when they drop bombs and then refuse to discuss the bomb they just dropped, which is particularly annoying), I tend to point that out, since I actually like to discuss things. That's why I'm here, to have discussions, so that pattern of posting makes little sense to me. I suppose you've failed to notice that I agree with you more often than not. Oh well. I tend to think that I can learn from people I agree with and disagree with as well as from people whom I like and dislike, so that makes the conversation worth it. I know from experience that you sometimes refuse to discuss different ways of viewing something you're commenting on, sorry if you don't like me pointing that out, but it seems like a pertinent observation when everyone is responding to your posts about something you claim you don't want to discuss. A good rule of thumb is if you don't want to discuss things on a message board, don't bring them up on a message board.

    This is just fundamentally incorrect and a falsely-premised talking point you like to fall back on.

    The pattern is: you say something, I try to discuss it, you refuse, I comment on your refusal.

    That's not talking about you rather than talking about Star Wars, that's trying to talk about Star Wars and commenting on your refusal to do so. If you can show me any time when that wasn't what happened, I am ready and willing to apologize. I am here to talk about Star Wars, which is precisely why I find it weird and comment on it when you say (sometimes extreme sounding) things and then refuse to discuss them in any substantive capacity.
  24. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I guess you just don't get it. How and why I do anything is none of your business.

    Why I am negative? None of your business.

    Why don't I want to talk about it? None of your business. Commenting on my refusal to talk is not talking about Star Wars, it's talking about me personally.

    "Calling me out" on my posting patterns is definitely personal and not your place. Are you a mod?

    Notice how I don't care about how or why you post, only when it refers to me. Referring to me in your posts in any way is definitely personal.

    I am allowed to bring anything (within TOS) up on a message board and not discuss it at all, I can drop it at any moment. This is none of your business. You guys are of course free to continue that discussion without me.

    And yes, I can pull comments you made about my "negativity" and the way I choose to view things, which had nothing to do with refusal to comment.

    I don't care that you find my refusal to comment weird, it is none of your business.

    Do I have to PM a mod about this and get us both banned?


  25. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yes, there is. You simply choose to reject the established definition of the word in favor of your own definition, which isn't really fair and defeats the purpose of words having a specific meaning. It's like saying "cat" when you mean "dog". Again, the definition is in the word itself. You seem to think the clones' tendency to follow orders somehow takes away their sentience and self-awareness, but it does not, and you've provided no rationale for how or why it would, while conveniently ignoring all the canonical evidence which disproves your contention.

    Some people may tend to think that, but that doesn't make it true. Human exclusionism ( increasingly debunked in the scientific community ) is ultimately not much different from redefining "sentient", in this case to mean "human".
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