Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 320: Citadel Rescue Discussion Thread

I just do not see what is wrong with Tinn's line. "There haven't been battles like these since the days of the old Republic" i.e. - the Republic that is old to him, the one in which there were large-scale space battles involving multiple Jedi. After we were stupidly told in AotC that 'this Republic' had 'stood for a thousand years', and that there hadn't been 'a full-scale war' since its formation, we needed some way to allow for all the conflict that the EU had already detailed, and that we wanted to explore in games, books and comics, never mind the 20-odd millennia that Ben claimed it had existed for.

This is a political organisation which has lasted for 25,000 years, an unimaginable timescale for Earthbound human societies - there are probably numerous Old Republics, depending on where you are in the timeline. Jedi 20,000 years ago previously probably referred to the period a millennium before them as 'the Old Republic', drawing the dividing line at some reorganisation or resolution or expansion, just as Ben refers to the PT Republic as 'the Old Republic'. The EU's "Ruusan reformation" being the most recent example that divides 'Old' from 'Current', as far as Tinn is concerned.

I don't think the parallels with the French Republic are a bad analogy at all. The Republic of the Clone Wars is probably the 37th iteration of that government, all them being someone's Old Republic, and someone's plain-old-Republic. And as Alan Dean Foster put in the '76 novelisation, all are simply the Republic.

 

Yeah, I don't have any problem with him mentioning "the Old Republic", my initial negative reaction was because I thought he said "there hasn't been a battle like THIS since the Old Republic", which would imply that he's been on vacation since Geonosis.

 

I feel like I need to slam my thoughts on the table about this.

Meh. Fits well enough for me. Lucas will always be detached somewhat from the EU because he didn't write it, but at least they're acknowledging the EU and recognizing the various stages of the Republic in it's bloody history. Tiin's line works with both AOTC and to an extent the pre-established history of the Republic in the EU with the Ruusan Reformation.

But as with most things I'm lax enough to let it slide.

 

What I'm really wondering about is this;

Why did Piell give Ahsoka explicit instructions to give the info to the Jedi council? Did he know something about Palpatine? Is the council already starting to distrust the chancellor?

I really hope we'll learn more about this.

 

ya i thought the same thing... what weirds me out more is when sio bibble says in episode 2 "there hasnt been a full scale war since the formation of the republic", obviousely he failed history class lol, what about the sith wars, great hyperspace war, mandalorian war, ruusan reformation???

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

My issue's not fully with GL. Not directly. My issue is with Lucasfilm. GL has stated what he considers to be two separate universes. Lucasfilm insists they all work together. They have touted their holocron of data that everyone MUST consult and follow. And yet, they didn't do it in this instance. Once they knew there was a conflict (apparently 3 years Ago), they did nothing to correct that problem. Then, once the conflict is finally revealed, they basically say discard the books you bought believing this to be the character's fate. This is his TRUE fate. This is the issue. Lucasfilm can't follow its own mandates. This one as others stated was simply the final straw in a long line of omissions on Lucasfilm's part. On its own, this is no big deal. It's more to do with the fact that Lucasfilm has been consistently screwing the fans for the past few years in terms of quality product and naturally, people like me are upset that we've been paying good money for trash. And when we finally do get good books, those are the ones that don't count.


Anyway, aside from the Even Piell stuff and Ahsoka's continued infallibility, Tarkin was good and the jedi rescue squad was great. Makes me wish we'd seen them rescue Piell over the usual trio.

 

Alright I would like to restate what I think the writers of this series are attempting to establish with this ?Old Republic? line. Essentially you have this galactic state known as the Galactic Republic. It was founded c.25,000 BBY as a result of sovereign unity within the Core Worlds.

However throughout the history of this Galactic union/state there have obviously been reforms etc. The sole one which we know of is the Ruusan Reformations which, as implied by The Clone Wars team, would have established a new Galactic Constitution. For any state, when a new constitution is adopted, your previous ?state? dissolves and a new state is established in its place.

In the context of the galaxy, as far as we know, the Republic existed with its established constitution from c.25,000 until 1,000 BBY when, for one reason or another, the Republic adopted a new constitution (this is what the Episode meant by ?Modern Founding?). So essentially when this occurred the ?First Republic? was dissolved and a new ?Second Republic? was established in its place. Yes there is still one ?state? known as the Galactic Republic however it is divided into two separate entities due to a constitutional change.

So Tinn is obvious referring to the ?Old? 25,000 ? 1,000 ?Republic? as the previous incarnation of the Republic prior to the reforms. This is further reignforced by Pre Vizsla who specifically states the ?fall of the Old Republic?. By this he means, in essence, the fall of the ?Old Incarnation? of the Republic state.

To Obi-Wan in ANH he would be referring to both states conjoined. So when he says the ?Old Republic? he is referring to both the ?First Constitution? and the ?Second Constitution? as a singularity.

Nothing really changes. Essentially there is still one state known as the ?Galactic Republic?, however like the French and Hellenic (Greek) Republic this nation is divided into different incarnations according to constitutional changes.

GALACTIC REPUBLIC
First Galactic Republic: c.25,000 BBY ? 1,000 BBY
Second Galactic Republic: 1,000 BBY ? 19 BBY
***State temporarily dissolved as Galactic Empire***
Third Galactic Republic: 4 ABY ? Unknown

In a contemporary context there is ?FRENCH REPUBLIC? as a nation, which is then further divided into First, Second, Third, Fourth and Fifth republic constitutions.

So with that said I would argue that the state established in 4 ABY is offically the 'Galactic Republic' which is ruled by the 'Third Republic Constitution'.

I think you misinterpret what Sio Bibble is saying (in conjunction with the other information we have). Essentially he is talking about the founding of THIS particular Republic. For instance if you were a Frenchmen and you said ?Their hasn?t been a World War since the formation of the Republic? it is very likely you are referring to the Fifth Republic founded in 1959. You don?t necessarily have to be referring to the Fourth and Fifth conjointly...

...make sense?

 

There's only one Galactic Republic. It's the same Republic, only it operates differently. For the Empire, there's actually two. The First, which is Palps', and then the second, which is Krayt's.

 

Exactly that?s what I?m saying. There is a single Galactic Republic which is temporary dissolved and then re-established in 4 ABY. It?s the same nation, it is just broken into (as far as we know) three (four for the EU) separate constitutional states.

 

It does have a somewhat different structure than the Galactic Republic too. I thought from your post you meant there's multiple Republics: First, then Second Republics, ect. But, yeah, the Old Republic (Galactic Republic) was the first, then the New Republic is the second.

 

Yeah, that was intriguing. It was obvious that Piell didn't like Tarkin or his ideas one bit, and that he knew Tarkin had Palpatine's favour. In instructing Ahsoka (not Tarkin's bigger fan either) to give the coordinates to the Council, he was making a clear statement of concern about where the Supreme Chancellor was taking the war. Maybe he feared that in the hands of the military the Nexus Route would be used for a devastating strike on Separatist homeworlds? The sort of thing that the Jedi Code wouldn't permit, but would might allow a swift conclusion to the war? It's all very interesting, the more so since we're about to meet a member of one of the great hyperspatially-knowledgeable species...

 

I guess I see it somewhat differently then. To me there is the Galactic Republic. It is broken into the First Constitution (incarnation), Second Constitution and, eventually, Third Constitution. Essentially it is one state (like France, Britain, United States) however it is broken into incarnations of the same system.

With that said in my opinion the ?New Republic? is merely a continuation of the same Galactic Republic only with the Third Constitution. In my opinion the differences between the Second and Third Constitutions are the same as those from the First and Second.

 

I wouldn't say that it was an ultra-specific bit of dirt about Palpatine, but I do think it's one of the bigger 'hints' of the ongoing power struggle between Palpatine (or rather, 'the Senate') and the Jedi Order.

Ever since the whole Emergency Powers bit, give or take a year, I always had it in my mind that the Council has been at least a little wary of Palpatine's new power, and sometimes outright distrustful. Piell, coming off as somewhat of a curmudgeon whose loyalties lie firmly with the Order, strikes me as a suitable character to bring up this potential growing gap.

Heck, even as far back as Genndy's series, Piell himself states (regarding Anakin's knighthood) "Palpatine's been requesting this for MONTHS now", and Mace flatly retorts that politicians have no say in Jedi matters.

 

i think EU knows thing called "New Republic"

Ok thing is that there is good republic and evil empire in the GFFA and they just change form and emperors change and all- but one jedi republic and one sith empire in many different forms......So i don't see difference even in Empires- it is irrelevant who leads them Empires are based on rule by fear.....

Yes Tarkin seems to think Chancellor dislikes jedi too- (and he is so right ) looks like Palpy has shared some of his future visions with him- i think Even was able to see Chancellor's true motives better through Tarkin who is not able to mask his 'dark side' like Palpatine- we need to see more republic baddies though- some we don't see in OT but who would be Imperials at the time- Sate Pestage- while eu-character- was created actually to be grand vizier of Empire in ESB so perhaps we'll see him......

 

No, not the New Republic, what I meant was I originally thought he was talking about different Galactic Republic's before the first Galactic Empire, meaning first, second, third Republics. There's only one Galactic Republic, but overtime it changed. The New Republic is referred to as the second Galactic Republic, but it didn't operate like the original (post reformation).

 

This is pointless nitpicking whether or not there is two or one 'old republics' but many people seem to in-universe see those as two different republics (Sio Bibble and Palpatine himself) some consider them to be same system just reorganised (Obi-Wan, Tarkin who means with "Old Republic the entire old democratic system) so it's point of view -matter once again- but ep guide confirms Saesee was talking about Pre-Ruusan Republic- stupid line that is though -since there have been much bigger battles like that during the clone wars- but Saesee's line means "old" system anyway.... and preruusan republic was slightly different system than that during 1000 years of peace so whether or not it's different enough to be considered separate republic altogether is depending on one's point of view.....

 

No, Swash.

I'll explain later on.

 

Essentially what I am saying is that there is one overarching Galactic Republic. Much like there is an overarching ?France? and an overarching ?Germany?. However within this singular nation there are different incarnations caused by constitutional changes. So to put it in a contemporary context there is France, however you have the First, Second, Third, Fourth and Fifth French Republics.




GALACTIC REPUBLIC

First Galactic Republic (c.25,000 ? 1,000 BBY): This was the original incarnation of the Galactic Republic. It later fell from various crisis? and a new amended constitution was adopted. This meant that the First Republic was dissolved at 1,000 BBY.

Second Galactic Republic (1,000 ? 19 BBY): Established following the collapse of the First Republic. This government was governed by an amended constitution of the first and its establishment was considered the ?modern founding? of the Republic. This state was eventually dissolved due to civil war and replaced by a Galactic Empire.

Third Galactic Republic (4 ABY ? Unknown): Established following a rebellious uprising against the Empire. This Third Republic signalled the reestablishment of the Galactic Republic and was governed by a new amended constitution.



I think that may be slightly different than what you are saying GG. Essentially, while it is convenient to think there were just two incarnations (as per the EU) I think it is obvious that this is yet another amendment to continuity by The Clone Wars. Pre Vizsla refers to the ?First Republic? as if it were a separate state which ?fell? only to be obviously reorganized under a new government; the Episode Guide establishes that the government established at 1,000 was both a ?new government? whilst also being a new ?founding? of the Republic; and this all fits in with Sio Bibble?s and Palpatine?s lines more accurately. I would rather it just be a First and Second Republics, however with the evidence provided it does seem to be what is now established by the show (not to mention it better fixes what Sio Bibble and Palpatine said).

 

Pre Viszla said "Fall of the Old Republic" and that line was excellent IMO - Saesee's line didn't really make sense since that battle was not so special- during Geonosis battle that would have been reasonable...... but as said it depends on point of view is reorganised republic same thing as republic before that reorganization- Even First (and only if you ask me ) Galactic Empire was technically same state as the republic- but not really same at all what comes to system after reorganization..... so it depends how you define 'The Old Republic'- Saesee sees two republics- old one and current one so does Sio and Palpatine so apparently it was general opinion at the time that this 'Galactic Republic' is only 1000 years old- and before that there was "the Old Republic"- however during the reign of the Empire -'Old Republic' referred to both and Empire was seen as new version of old system that was used 25000 years- so while Obi-Wan's line in ANH may have been 'historically inaccurate' in-universe- what he meant was that jedi have been supporting democracy 25000 years- and first time after those thousand generations there is no Republic at all- we know Obi-Wan don't care about politics so he apparently thought reformation of Ruusan was not beginning of the Republic since there was 'Old Republic' before that.....

So simple thing yet we can debate it forever.... ok if GG thinks reformation is only one happening in the history of the one republic then it's your opinion- canonical info allows both interpretetions either one 25000 years old Republic reformed 1000 years prior TCW or one republic which felt 1000 years prior and new was formed immediately afterwards.....

 

If Piell didn't trust Tarkin, why tell him half the info? If Piell didn't trust Palpatine, why didn't he tell Ahsoka? If TCW is going on the idea that Piell knew about Palpatine, then it is bad writing. We know the truth, but the characters don't, so you can't cheat and give them this information out of the blue. If they find out somehow, like discovering secret communications or transfers of money/credit and that leads them to something, then good.

What in the Jedi code would prevent an attack on the Separatist homeworlds? They were no problems in the EU or the old Clone Wars cartoon in attacking Separatist worlds. There shouldn't be a problem in this new series as well. Also, why would Palpatine allow a swift end to the war? He wants the war to continue. Seems more like Palpatine would rather remove Tarkin, because he could be a potential problem.

 

Piell definitely didn't know all about Palpatine- giving half of the info to him however ensures the co-operation- i think Even was not sure about Palpy because he seemed to support people like Tarkin but was unable to see through Palpy's facade- so he decided to trust Tarkin and Chancellor but keeping half of the info himself he also ensured that they won't have any power over the jedi- just in case power corrupts the chancellor and sith will use him... jedi suspected there is Sidious somewhere near chancellor but they weren't sure who he is......


I don't think jedi have problem to attack sepworlds but how to pull off the attacks was when code affected- no bombardments if civilians are in danger etc. Tarkin was willing to be ruthless and perhaps commit even warcrimes for good cause.....

 

Better in Republic hands than Separatist; it is also likely he was the only ?high ranking? officer among his forces.

I don?t think he necessarily didn?t trust Palpatine, however he knew that if the codes were in the hands of anyone other than the Jedi than they were at risk of being ?intercepted? by enemies. Remember these are important codes and the Jedi know that Sidious is somewhere within the top Republic hierarchy. If they were known to Palpatine they could be captured by the Separatists.

He also knows that in the event the Jedi did not have full control over the military the codes could be used in a un-Jedi-like way by the Republic military.

I think you may be misinterpreting the current war strategy of the Republic. Currently, with the war under Jedi command, the Republic are specifically attempting to ?cut the head off? the beast rather than just destroy it completely. You will notice that the Republic is primarily defensive attempting to specifically eliminate the Separatist military, warmongers, ?corrupted/evil? commanders, factories and heads of state. They are doing this because they now know that the Separatists themselves (member worlds) are not necessarily engaging in aggressive warfare, but it is rather the puppeteers of the Sith and corporations. They also know that an invasion of Separatist territory would only result in unnecessary destabilizing of the galactic populous against the Republic. So they don?t really want to invade the Separatists because they know they haven?t actually enacted war (they know the conspiracies behind the scenes) and that there are opportunities for peace if the ?evil? Separatists are eliminated. That?s why they are rounding up warmongering Separatists, hunting Grievous, destroying factories and NOT invading Separatist worlds.

The Republic Military however would attempt a bull-headed invasion of the Separatist territory in an attempt to create a demoralized Confederacy which will sue for peace. This isn?t what the Jedi want. It may bring a swift end to the war; however it would result in a decimated and possibly even more unstable galaxy. The Jedi are also aware that sometimes in times of crisis certain crimes are committed by even the ?good guys?...

He doesn?t, however the rest of the Republic military (non-Jedi) who aren?t involved in the conspiracy would.