Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 408: The General -- Discussion Thread

I think it has less to do with the clones sense of worth and more to do with the awful tactics that are getting them killed en masse.

If Krell actually came up with good plans that they respected, he could treat the clones like dirt and they'd be able to suck it up and deal with it with less drama.

 

Something I left out of my review earlier is how the crew is writing the clones like typical war movie soldiers. But the clones aren't ordinary soldiers. Ordinary soldiers, like the ones in Apocalypse Now or Saving Private Ryan, were normal people from normal backgrounds, brought into the armed forces out of necessity. They didn't have the soldier mentality. The clones on the other hand are killing machines, specifically bred for one purpose: to fight. They are droids with skin. All their lives they have been trained and conditioned towards giving their lives in service to the Republic through war. They have not had (or in their conditions at least, they shouldn't have had) the chance to develop human characteristics or form their own independent opinions. How can they form opinions about what they're worth and all this other ethics crap if they've been conditioned to obey and taught to fight and die for the Republic? They should all really be like Dogma, just following orders without question and proudly marching into battle for the sake of the Republic.

 

Well, there was that Hutt from Evil Plans I think, who's name was almost exactly like an EU Hutt. Plus in the Republic Commando novels, there were multiple clones who's names were Fi or Sev.

But I know that that isn't the case, and it is just another example of the TCW team not doing their research.

 

That is true, and it's so odd considering they're trained men. I need to go back and see Rex's feelings about this. I think that whiny cardboard Fives got in the way at times IIRC.

 

I find it funny that Krell deploying a single platoon capable of achieving its objectives (albeit with heavy casualties) is seen as inferior to Anakin TACTICAL GENIUS Skywalkers Douglas Haig style "march very slowly towards the enemy" style of warfare seen in Weapons Factory or Zillo Beast.

 

I actually might agree that TCW is risking a RepCom-style portrayal, going too far in an effort showcase the clones' humanity. Although from what you say here I take it you probably disagree more fundamentally with that portrayal. Like it or not, the clones of TCW are not, never have been, and never will be "droids with skin." Deal with it.

Rex already answered that one for you: "Maybe... back in the day."

I'm serious, that's exactly how it works. The clones are humans, they start from a very artificial point, based on their conditioning and training, and their experiences shape them into new kinds of people. They're not homogeneous - some will always remain duty-driven, like Dogma, Commandeer Wolffe and (likely) Appo. Others will push the line, like Jesse, Kix and definitely Fives. And others come to a greater awareness, discover their own freewill, and choose what to do with their lives. Men like Cut Lawquane, and Captain Rex.

Both of those occasions Skywalker had a specific strategic reason for the slow march. If you want to see how Anakin would have led the assault on Umbara, watch Landing at Point Rain. Kriff, watch the beginning of "Darkness on Umbara". Anakin's a different kind of leader than Krell.

Ironic, because as Darth Vader (who is, incidentally, a bad Sith) has a lot more in common with General Krell than with his CW-era persona. Completing circles and all.

 

I have a question. These two episodes haven't been too bad on tactics. Not that they are mind boggling super smart or reasonable, but they aren't entirely boneheaded either. But have we ever seen the Gunships providing close air support? Why don't the clones ever keep a few on hand to fire missile barrages or lay down suppression fire from above?

 

Until Palpatine says three magic words and they all do as they're told.

Kinda throws a monkey wrench in TCW's portrayal of clones.

The clones are lemmings.

I take it you don't know much about Darth Vader, because he treated his stormtroopers very well, especially the 501st.

 

Yeah, I've been addressing this too. I appreciate the kind of story they're trying to tell, but strictly taken it shouldn't be possible for troopers to behave like this if they've been genetically engineered to be totally obedient and take any order without question.

But if the clones were taking orders like droids, this story wouldn't even be possible, and they would generally be a lot more boring.

 

I don't care much for the EU portrayal of Darth Vader, if that's what you mean. I suspect I'd like such a portrayal of Vader about as much as you seem to like the humanized clones in TCW. Except, well, that's why I don't read (or complain about) that material.

All? That remains to be seen, my friend. I didn't see three million (or whatever the number is) clones follow Order 66. Most? Sure. The vast majority? Absolutely. All?

[Yawn] You say tomato, I say barbecue. Too each his own.

 

So, after watching last night, I'd say "It's all Obi-Wan's fault!" applies here. Obi-Wan puts the pressure on Krell to take down the airfield quickly. A Jedi Council Member directly ordering a Jedi Master, who in turn is motivated to get his troops moving. So clearly it's Kenobi who has all that blood on his hands. Krell was just following orders.

 

^lol, kinda true actually.

I'm not qualified to join in the clone arguments. So I shouldn't get involved, my bias is obvious since all I know of the clones comes from the movies, the micro-series, and TCW. I really enjoy the TCW portrayal. It makes since to me the clones would grow beyond their initial programming and training. Nature doesn't work that way and in my opinion no matter how good you are you can't screw around and completely out program nature.

In any case most of the clones are order following machines. There's only about 4 of them in the immediate group; Rex, Fives, Jesse, and Kix whose programming appears broken so to speak or who have become real individuals. Tup is the new guy whose just trying to fit in and getting swept up in this. Hardcase just wants to shoot stuff and Dogma lives up to his name.

 

I just got my review up:

http://www.findyourgeek.com/reviews/detail/star-wars-the-clone-wars-the-general

Loved this episode.

 

Did anyone else think the spider tanks reminded them of Mike Wazowski?
[image=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-g9Ko3ICmnSY/TYLqgT5QYmI/AAAAAAAAEoU/JKoZxL3q_9s/s1600/mike%2Bwazowski.jpg]

Also, I'm not too concerned about the barren airbase. I remember the Jedi Apprentice series, when Obi Wan defected to help the Young win the Melida Daan civil war. When they attacked that resupply station, they noted that instead of doing constant sorties, the flights would all refuel at the same time. Perhaps the Umbarans made the same mistake, and Fives and Hardcase got lucky.

 

Something else I left out, there were a few slip ups with the character models.

Example (from the lovely people on millenniumfalcon.com) 1: in one shot, Krell loses his beard:

[image=http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k546/ImNotAStarWarsFanboy/TCWcharactermodelcockup3krell.jpg]

Example 2: Several times during the episode, a standard, unpainted (ie. all-white) Phase II clone model is used in some shots instead of the proper models.

First instance, a clone getting dragged away by Kix to be healed (sorry for the less than ideal images for this one, that was due to the scene):
BEFORE
[image=http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k546/ImNotAStarWarsFanboy/TCWcharactermodelcockup1before.jpg]
AFTER
[image=http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k546/ImNotAStarWarsFanboy/TCWcharactermodelcockup1after.jpg]

The second instance, and the more obvious one, Hardcase while infiltrating the base:
BEFORE
[image=http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k546/ImNotAStarWarsFanboy/TCWcharactermodelcockup2before.jpg]
AFTER
[image=http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k546/ImNotAStarWarsFanboy/TCWcharactermodelcockup2after.jpg]

 

Yeah I noticed them upon my second viewing as well. The regular grunts aren't a big deal but messing up Hardcase's model is lazy.

There is another one too, after a clone is crushed by one of the walkers and Kix helps him out you can see his helmet isn't painted either.

 

Yeah, I also don't care for the EU interpretation of Darth Vader.

Overall, this was a super episode and no, I don;t think that the writers need to read Karen Traviss Republic Commando novels just to tell a story. No, no, and no.

With that said, I can't wait for the next episode which looks like its going to rock.

 

That actually makes sense

 

Vong: You may not like something, but that doesn't mean others need to follow what you say. I'm only saying this as a response to your post above and your "are we still arguing over EU conflict" post.

 

Ummm, you are teh only one to bring up Karen Traviss here. I might have mentioned Fandalorians, but I wasn't going on about the books. Stop trying to start an argument.

 

Important point, this is. But I have to admit, the majority of the background 'chatter', right before Rex takes Fives aside, was against Krell. I can justify it in my head, but I think it would have been good to add a few more "voices" to the "pro-Krell" camp. Then again, those men who aren't going to take a stand against Krell are more likely to stand there in silence anyway. It's a minority - but a vocal minority - that are objecting to Krell's plans.

And while I'm rooting for Rex to take it to Krell, I just love Hardcase's response. "I don't know, could be fun!"

 

IMO Best episode of the show.

The action was good and the character development of the clones was excellent. There almost seems not point mentioning the visuals because these days they were always so good. The use of the airfield as a frame for the episode worked well, I believe I mentioned in the "Gungan attack" thread that the story didn't progress because the republic started at a loss and ended with another loss putting them no closer or further from ultimate defeat. The use of the airfield as a framing device allowed the story to progress from the point they were at last week whilst, not concluding the arc prematurely, or dropping the heroes in a situation where a Deus Ex ending is the only way out like in "Prisoners".

Pros:
-Airfield as a story frame
-Great Dialogue between the clones
-Rocket launchers for perhaps the second time in TCW
-Excellent Action and visuals
-Introduction of Appo, I was thinking during the week I would like to see Rex get a promotion to Major Rex or even Commander Rex then a young Captain Appo appear. While sergeant is far to low a rank, for Appo I'm glad to see that Rex won't be the one slaughtering younglings in RoTS.

Cons:
-I've never been a fan of individual clones, to me the movies implied that they were all the same.
-Sgt. Appo - Sergeant is a Non-Comm rank, meaning in the real world he would have to be selected for officer candidate school, then graduate as a junior officer (Lieutenant ect.), then progress another 2 ranks to equal Rex then another two or three to reach commander. Not to mention the fact that he is meant to be a senior commander.
-Still no explanation of Skywalker's absence
-Are Ahsoka and Bariss and Tiin still in space?
-No explanation to the gas in the Umbarran helmets
-Calling the launchers "rocket launchers" instead of "Missile Launchers" or "Torpedo Launchers"
-Constant use of the word battalion
-No chartacter progression for krell, repetive dialog

 

I think I'll go watch the episode again. I don't remember what was going on in the background. I'll get back to you on that in a bit. Yeah I loved Hardcase. I wonder if he was on something like clone ritalin in "The Deserter" and the prescription ran out before this battle. xD

 

In Star Wars, Segeant is an officer rank among clones. This is proven in AOTC where green clones are sergeants.
In other words, Appo is one of the few lower ranking officers. Judging by the toll on Umbara, there are going to be more officer deaths (there kinda has been already). This will leave room for Appo to climb ranks.
The same goes with Lietenant Thire becoming Commander Thire.

I believe they have always been called "rocket launchers" in SW despite not really being that.

 

"We're out of rockets sir!"

Clone pilot from AOTC.