Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 408: The General -- Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Barriss_Coffee, Oct 31, 2011.

  1. sacharias Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2011
    star 2
    Completely agree with everything you said about the Jedi's impossible situation, regarding the clones. And yes, I'll grant that Krell's position does logically follow from his assumptions; namely, that the clones are not people. Since TCW goes out of its way to demonstrate that the clones are people, with freewill, the ability to think for themselves, it's obvious Krell is "wrong" in the context of TCW. While it's clear some fans disagree, TCW has decided that the clones are people - a decision I applaud - and that puts Krell's entire attitude in a bad light.

    The very first episode of TCW, Yoda lectures the clones on their uniqueness, their individuality. They're sentient, they're distinct entities in the Force("luminous beings"). In my mind, being the Grand Master and all, Yoda has set the standard for the Jedi's respect of the clones. TCW has been enforcing that standard ever since. Which happens to be half the reason I have any interest in the show at all. :p.


  2. Tordelback Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 2
    I like the way Krell referred to Rex's 'luck' rather than the Force - in Obi-Wan's experience, there's no such thing. Is this another indication that Krell is an atypical Jedi, or is it that he doesn't believe that the Force can be 'with' clones?
  3. sacharias Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2011
    star 2
  4. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I'd like a scene of Anakin back on Coruscant and Palpatine's reason for recalling him...

    But then again it might be a "oh Anakin, we need you to help get ready for the senatorial banquet.
  5. CaptainYossarian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2003
    star 3
    It makes sense if the atmosphere changed over time and became toxic to Umbarans - ie maybe a dangerous substance was accidentally released and pulluted the air, but it is only dangerous to Umbarans. That would mean that they can no longer breathe their own air without a mask, but humans and others would be fine because they are immune to the pollutant. And when Umbarans are on Coruscant, they are fine breathing the ordinary air unaided because it is free of the substance that is deadly to them.

    Considering the nature of their planet, Umbarans might stay inside a lot anyway, so ordinarily the poisonous air does not bother them and they do not need to wear helmets - only now when they have to go outside to meet the threat from the invading army must they wear them.
  6. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    ^ That's actually not a bad theory.
  7. rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    What a jaw-droppingly, vicious, brutal, smack-you-in-the-mouth episode!
    I did not believe any episode could displace LaPR at the best action episode in TCW, but this episode steamrolled it much like the Umbaran centipede tanks steamrolled over those clones.
    If there could be an grade option for 11/10, this episode gets it.
  8. Padme501st Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2006
    star 1
    I'm really enjoying this arc, wished it had been like this from the start of the season

    However I expected to see more about Krell's character since this one is called "The General" and it would keep 3 and 4 as a wrap up. Instead it was all about the clones. Which is fine, I enjoyed a more human look to them. I know that some ppl dont think the clones have feelings or 'independent thinking' and we are led to believe thats what ppl in the SW galaxy felt but that's putting too much faith that the cloning program was 100% foolproof. I feel that they didnt expect how all these different environment would affect each clone (different experiences at different times) and that the clones wont all think the same after being in service for a while.

    Apart from Krell having no redeeming quality or any addition to his character that would make me respect him as a villain (cause i'm sorry that's what he might as well be to me), this episode was very enjoyable and I wouldnt mind more arcs being like this
  9. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    So the Umbarans are like the Helghast then?
  10. SpecialOpsUnit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2007
    star 4

    My favorite scene of the episode, just how simply he did it. It's like the flying creature wasn't there, how effortlessly Rex killed it.
  11. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Effortless, nonchalant, callous, cold. I'd like to see the clones shown like this more.
  12. SergeantDante Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 2008
    star 1
    Considering the animals were eating a dead clone, that's somewhat understandable. Still cold, but less so.
  13. Drunk_Lando Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2010
    star 1
    I disagree. The clones are not slaves. And Krell is a jerk to make the audience hate him. I don't see him as anything more complex than that.

    The Kaminoans say that without their tampering, the clones would be like Jango Fett. Bobo, an unaltered clone, grows up to be exactly like him. Palpatine wouldn't want an army of Jango Fetts running around, so they were altered. This is Star Wars clone science. Like Star Wars space science, it is not the same as here in the real world.

    In TCW, all the clones are all given free will, unlike the films and EU. Cut and Slick said they didn't want to fight, but neither one said that the Jedi refused to let them go. As for the other clones, if they don't want to fight, they can just leave too. There are armed with weapons, tanks, starships, and fighters. They have all been trained for combat. If they didn't want to be "slaves" they could leave, and the Republic couldn't do a thing about it. To me, giving the clones free will seems like a mistake on the writers. It goes against what Palpatine would have wanted, a obedient army, who follows orders without question.

    The clones are not the Jedi's property. The Jedi couldn't authorize the use of the clones. The Senate did. In AOTC, the Republic caught the CIS plotting to attack them. War was on. The Republic found out all their negotiations and peace proposals meant nothing. The CIS was buying time to prepare to attack. Palpatine had the right to create an army after receiving emergency powers. So legally, I guess he could draft/conscript people into the military. The clones would have been drafted. They were already trained and organized. It would take time to train and organizes beings from the loyal Republic worlds. Which, the Republic did as the war went on (according to EU). But in the beginning, the war took them by surprise and they needed an army now.

    The Jedi took command because there was no real military set up, and I'm sure the Senate didn't want the clones running around without any supervision at first. Didn't the Jedi have a oath to serve and protect the Republic. If the Jedi refused to fight in the war, or fight with the clones, then the clones would just fight by themselves or with other Republic troops leading them. If the Jedi tried to "free" the clones, the clones could have responded that they had the freedom to fight and serve the Republic. Plus, the Senate could see this action by the Jedi as hurting the war effort and possible treason, if they were trying the "free" the clones by force. And Order 66 would already be there. Nothing would really change, except now Palpatine could use any Jedi refusal to show that they support the CIS and Dooku. The Jedi were trapped in more ways than they even knew.
  14. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    I see lots of strong arguments for why the Jedi did what they did, but not much really countering the fact that the clones are essentially a slave army. Nothing we've ever seen indicates that a clone who wished to leave the army was free to do so. And if they were engineered so that they shouldn't ever think about leading a different life, then that's an even deeper level of enslavement.
  15. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Once again, we have two episodes that should have swapped titles. 'Darkness' was all about introducing Krell, and should have been called 'The General'. The second episode was all about the clones and should have been called 'Darkness on Umbara'.

    IMO the same thing applies to 'Monster' and 'Witches of the Mist', where 'Monster' was all about witches and mist, and 'Witches' was all about how Savage turned into a monster.

    Not that it really matters, but it would make much more sense.
  16. Drunk_Lando Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2010
    star 1
    I counteracted your arguments. Do you not accept my answers? The clones were not slaves. Nothing shows that the clones were being forced to fight as slaves.

    From Wilkipedia:
    "Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property and are forced to work. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand compensation. Conditions that can be considered slavery include debt bondage, indentured servitude, serfdom, domestic servants kept in captivity, adoption in which children are effectively forced to work as slaves, child soldiers, and forced marriage."

    None of this defines the relationship between the clones and the Jedi as shown in the movies, EU, or TCW. The clones have not been shown in any of the above conditions. The clones are like a drafted/conscripted army.
  17. CameronKMcEwan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Review of the latest ep from Den of Geek:

    http://www.denofgeek.com/television/1121674/the_clone_wars_season_4_episode_8_review_the_general.html
  18. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    You might be right, and that's so unfortunate, because he could be so much more than that.

    I think some of us (me) are seeing more in him than is really there. (at least from what they've shown so far)
  19. Darth_Gamek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2009
    star 6
    I hope he dies juggling those quadruple blades before he can spit out more crap at the clones.
  20. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Ok, same difference, really. I'm talking about the deprivement of freedom and freewill here, and in that regard there's little difference between a slave army and a conscripted army.
  21. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Except can't a conscripted army get paid? Not that I'm disagreeing over the subject, but aren't conscripts still entitled to a payroll? It's a job after all.
  22. Seerow SWTV★Mod

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    The clones must get some sort of allowance or paid somehow or they couldn't offer -- "Drinks on me after this mission." -- I think that's from all the way back in the Malevolence arc. Real shiny coin... and where would they get the paint to draw stuff on their armor? Somehow I can't imagine that's provided.
  23. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Yeah, the clones probably get paid so they can treat themselves to a few trinkets. However, I doubt clones are able to make a retirement fund, or open an account so that they can start saving in order to open a small business after the war is done. They are soldiers and that's it. Slaves also get paid. They get food, shelter, clothing... To me what defines a slave, and what transgresses the Jedi code, is the lack of freedom the clones have, the lack of choice over their own fates.
  24. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    It goes back to the two show examples: Cut and Slick. While they had opposite ideals, they both had to do so illegally to get what they wanted.
  25. sacharias Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2011
    star 2
    One could argue that the Jedi are also slaves to the Republic. They're lives are ultimately expendable for the greater good, just as the clones' lives are. They follow rules that they have no say in. The vast majority are taken from their homes while very young, never know their parents, and grow up in an artificial environment where they are taught the same rules, the same code, the same morals. There's more cultural variety, but a Jedi youngling has a lot in common with a clone cadet on Kamino.

    I'm pretty sure this has been addressed elsewhere, but isn't it the case that the Jedi don't allow members of their rank to just walk off, becoming autonomous and unaccountable Force-wielders? It's sometimes referred to as though one could "retire" from the Jedi Order, but I don't see how thats possible. Seems the ones who leave the Order do so in a bad way (Ventress, Aurra Sing, etc). I wouldn't be surprised if leaving the Jedi Order is tantamount to deserting the GAR, in which case the Jedi really aren't any more free than a clone, they just have more privileges.

    I'm not really a RepCom fan, but I think K Travis had it right when she wrote Rex's observation, that his dilemma, as a clone, wasn't really all that different from that of a Jedi like Ahsoka. You're in a place you didn't choose, and you make the best of it.